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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Justanothernap · 04/12/2017 11:14

Decided as not at deaths door I'll give a FD a go today. But if end up not feeling great will do a calorie tracked NFD instead.

peachy ultimately I don't know! But doubt you could wreck your metabolism in a week? Also if you can't fast something to keep you in check might be helpful. Biggest issue is risk of crashing off wagon if you feel too restricted I guess?

Oh I just thought isn't one meal a day a system some people use to lose weight? OMAD or something? So maybe it works for some people.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable might come along & give better advice!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2017 11:54

An FD's fine if you feel up to it, just - but don't fast with a significant fever (no worries about about a degree or so)
Important: Drink lots of water and no junk - you can always choose to let it become a miniFD` or a healthy NFD

peachy I'd recommend you do daily 16:8 or 14:10 - usually skipping breakfast fits with a heavy social calendar
That lets you join in without feeling deprived.
Drink lots of water and try to stay within daily NHS alcohol guidelines daily and have 2 days free of alcohol

Good luck, to the Monday fasting gang Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2017 11:56

A mini sounds sensible, bug

OP posts:
Bestbees · 04/12/2017 20:02

Easy fasting here but have started my period so not expecting a loss this week as always get a bloat of 3lbish.

Hope ill people are feeling on the mend.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2017 20:10

It's good that you expect a blip, bestbees
Everyone: Avoid the totm munchies and that bloat, plus a bit of bodyfat, should whoosh away the first FD after totm

OP posts:
HLBug · 04/12/2017 20:33

Finishing today on 777 kcal - so halfway between a FD and a Mini. Out for breakfast tomorrow and I’m excited Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2017 21:57

Enjoy your breakfast out tomorrow, bug I hope it is exceptional

OP posts:
HandMini · 04/12/2017 23:25

Yay. After a less than sensible weekend of eating I have finished and really enjoyed my Monday FD. Managed to get through to 8pm in tea and water and then had fish and veggies for tea. Good luck Tuesday FDers.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/12/2017 07:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2017 12:11

That's good news on your SV, mother It suggests your weekend was enjoyable, but you didn't go mad

OP posts:
peachypips · 05/12/2017 12:36

Hi all- well done fasters. Am doing as suggested this week and am doing 16:8. Sticking to low carb and sugar this week too to avoid temptation while doing a few day’s epic travelling for work and two Christmas dos.

Justanothernap · 05/12/2017 13:37

Made it through FD yesterday, 550 cals - happy with that. Turns out I can fast with a cold! (It's not a bad one really & no temperature).

Just need to sort out my NFDs and stay within TDEE by planning & tracking everything, finding this harder. I don't want to give up my snacks Sad . You're all so good here, hoping some determination/ will power rubs off on me!

Good luck to those fasting today.

Justanothernap · 05/12/2017 14:27

Glad all the fasters were successful,

Justanothernap · 05/12/2017 14:28

Oops random additional post. Sorry! Blush

missludgatecircus · 05/12/2017 16:29

Good news Fasters - the dress fitted like a dream :)

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2
HLBug · 05/12/2017 16:49

Aww congratulations MissLudgate - you look gorgeous Smile I hope you’re off somewhere lovely on honeymoon now?

peachypips · 05/12/2017 17:49

Oh wow MissLudgate - you look absolutely sensational. Congratulations!

Ta1kinPeace · 05/12/2017 18:07

Congratulations MissLudgate

Ta1kinPeace · 05/12/2017 18:09

I do not know if y'all listened to the news today
but this story shows why the weight loss is worth it
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42154666

purpleviolet1 · 05/12/2017 18:45

Congrats miss ludgate you look gorgeous!!

Went to docs today and she suspects vit D deficiency. My whole body is aching and I feel
Horrendous. Just want to sleep Sadgot bloods next week but she said to start on it anyway.

HLBug · 05/12/2017 19:56

My eagerly anticipated breakfast was particularly lovely and it's kept me going all day Shock Beautiful new cafe/bistro has opened at the bottom of my street (literally) so this could be quite troublesome! I was going to have a FD tomorrow but I don't think I'll manage after only breakfast today - so a sensible NFD instead.

That article is interesting TiP it must take some amount of willpower to only drink everyday. The results have clearly been worth it though. It's amazing that loosing weight can have such an impact.

Purple vitamin d deficiency is surprising common i think, but largely unknown. I think it has even been linked to things like cerebral palsy. Up here in the frozen north it's really something I'm aware of - at this time of year we only get about 2 hours of actual sunlight (slightly more daylight) each day. Yuck. And that's only when it's not snowing! So I'd be interested to know if taking a supplement does make you feel better.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2017 21:59

You look gorgeous, MissLudgate Flowers

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2017 22:01

No snacking really helps, Just or to be exact, snacking hinders fat-burning:

"bigger pickers need bigger knickers"

Make your snack food part of a meal, e.g. have it as dessert, or as a side dish

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 05/12/2017 22:09

Vitamin D deficiency is directly linked to higher risk of Multiple Sclerosis : get those supplements into you ASAP Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2017 22:23

tip's link must refer to the large-scale clinical trial of Prof Taylor's Newcastle Uni Hospital protocol for reversing T2 / pre-T2.
The Diabetes Uk website said they were funding this trial, after the very successful small trial

Mosely's BSD (800 cals daily low carb for 8 weeks) was based on this and Taylor wrote the foreward for the BSD book

Taylor won the Diabetes Uk 2013 Banting Prize and this is the Banting lecture he delivered:

Twin Cycle Hypothesis to explain and reverse T2

To summarise:
Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion.
Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss via a sharp reduction in food intake.

Individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas.
Some people accumulate fat in the liver and pancreas, despite theoretically having a "healthy" BMI.
Some can tolerate a BMI of 40+, whereas others - especially of S. Asian origin - cannot tolerate a BMI of 22+ and need to aim around 19.

When a person has more fat than their personal fat threshold, then T2 develops.
After they lose weight and go below this threshold, T2 will disappear.

This is why weight gain is such a risk factor for T2, particularly if that weight is carried around the stomach region.

OP posts: