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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
purpleviolet1 · 30/11/2017 09:35

*you are

BigChocFrenzy · 30/11/2017 12:10

Congrats on your SV, bug Great progress
You are on track for a brilliant milestone before Xmas: healthy BMI Smile

9lb in 4 weeks is excellent, bestbees
Hardly anyone loses every week, on any WOE; many lose with pauses & whooshes.

Successful weight loss depends on longterm focus and persistence
Ditto maintenance

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/11/2017 12:12

That 3 ring sizes was a brilliant NSV, tip We must remember ring size NSVs
Your DH is a champ too, buying another ring - big motivation never to return to previous ring size

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 30/11/2017 17:13

Bigchoc
Finding out was scary - my ring fell off when I was walking on the beach .... it took us an hour to find it !

But yes, its amazing where fat lies on the body
I carry all of mine around my tummy.
Despite having a BMI of under 22 I am distinctly flabby of belly (thanks to stretch marks) - and if I get lean enough to lose that, the rest of me looks scrawny!

I do not often do "proper" 500 calorie fasts now - as I find staying under 800 a couple of days a week, and having just one big meal a day is pretty simple
and both DH and I plan to keep eating this way for years to come.

quackingduck222 · 30/11/2017 19:32

Today was supposed to be a FD but DH finished work early and said he wanted to take me out for a late lunch.

I accepted as I can fast tomorrow instead. Wasn’t expecting dinner in Asda cafe tho Grin
Ah well it’s the thought that counts. Ended up with pie chips and peas as that’s all they had left. but it was yummy and I honestly don’t remember the last time I had chips as I never order them out.

I’m starting to change the way I think and I do feel a lot more in control now.

purpleviolet1 · 30/11/2017 21:16

Thanks BCF for the advice. NFD done

HLBug · 01/12/2017 20:04

Quiet in here today - any Friday Fasters finishing up for the day? It’s TOTM for me and I’m strangely not hungry - so I’ve made the most of it and had my weekend Mini FD today. I have MILs birthday tomorrow and a kids Christmas party on Sunday so I’m sure there will be some cake over the weekend, yum.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/12/2017 21:17

Yes, too quiet. In a film, this is when the Zombie would sneak out and start eating people Shock
Have an FD, zombies !

Any Friday or Saturday fasters ?
I'm fasting tomorrow

OP posts:
Justanothernap · 01/12/2017 21:33

Hello, I've been lurking here for a while.. and decided to join in. Think it might help to be accountable somewhere! I've not been super strict but still lost 7lb in 4 weeks (despite a gain one week due to too much booze & hungover related eating! I rarely drink to excess so that should be a one off) Hoping for a loss tomorrow after today's fast day, but may well stay the same as 2 FDs have crept up to 6-700 cals & NFDs have just been ok (read probably too many cals).

But there is time to buckle down if weight loss continues to stall. Feel really pleased I've started (11 stone may be bigger than I want to be, but it's better than 11.7 - hurtling towards 12)

Been really good reading how you all manage & all the advice. So thanks for taking the time to post. Smile

HandMini · 01/12/2017 21:39

Hi Justanother, welcome to the fasting crew.

I've just completely bodged it up the last two days. 😳

Went a bit nuts and ate chocolate and some sweets after tea yesterday and then got home from work today and scoffed a giant cheese toastie and some Pringles. Yikes. They were NFDs but even so I will have chomped way above TDEE. I'm less annoyed about the calories and more about the sugar and white carbs as I had hugely cut back both and was LOVING the feeling. Any tips for a cleanse??

Had good FDs on Mon and Wed tho so I reckon I can save the week by doing mini FDs Sat and Sun. Wish me luck....weekend and FDs don't nornally go together for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/12/2017 07:32

Welcome, just Smile
Well done on your SV. A decent start to your WOL.

If you find loss stalls after the first month, then I recommend addressing your NFDs:
An extra 100-200 on FDs is far less important than what can easily be several hundred on an NFD, or sometimes 1000s with too much junk food and booze - both of which are calorie dense, but can spike cravings for yet more.

Main tips:

  • No snacking, ever
  • Drink plenty of water every day (fizzy crap doesn't hydrate well and usually contains unhealthy additives like sodium benzoate)
  • Boost non-starchy veg, lentils, beans - healthy nourishment to support your bod in weight loss Also have 1-2 portions fruit daily on NFDs
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/12/2017 07:49

handmini Your body cleanses itself perfectly well on its own, no need to add anything; just cut out what interferes with this.
just cut out the junk and booze this weekend, to let your liver and kidneys etc work efficiently
Some exercise each day, even a 20 mins brisk walk outside would boost this (no, shopping doesn't bring this)

I recommend against b2b Minis over the WE in your case, especially if you normally have a Monday FD - that's too much like punishment / prolonged deprivation .... and makes the next binge more likely.

Unless you want to do a one-week BSD - which works on a different basis - then I recommend against 3 days in a row without an NFD:
The idea of IF / 5:2 / ADF etc is that every FD is followed by 1-3 NFDs, or a b2b is followed by 5 NFDs
Without sufficiently frequent recovery periods, then psychologically and physiologically, you are not getting the intervals of high load / recovery

==> I recommend a Saturday mini plus a sensible and alcohol-free junk-free Sunday within TDEE

If you think the extra you consumed is more than TDEE-1000, then make today a full FD

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/12/2017 07:51

Oh and decent bedtimes today and tomorrow, so that you get plenty of sleep.

OP posts:
HandMini · 02/12/2017 08:06

BigChoc - you’re amazing. Truly a personal diet coach!

I’m goiing to follow your advice. Mini FD today but enjoyable and sensible NFD with no booze tomorrow.

Happy weekend and stay strong FDers.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/12/2017 08:21

Happy, healthy WE, mini Smile
My FD today - since I'm on maintenance and will train 2 hrs at the gym - will be about 800 cals.
So more of a miniFD too; good luck to us both

Anyone else joining us with a mini / FD today ?

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 02/12/2017 09:45

Dont beat yourself up Mini, these things crop up. Just put it behind you.

FD nailed yesterday I’m enjoying finding ways to get as much food for my 500 cals as possible. My new got to FD meal is a omelette and I found yesterday it tastes no different with out without cheese so that’s a few more cals saved.

I’m looking at my diary today and will try and plan my fasts round Xmas. As last year this is where all my hard work went out the window. I fasted until Xmas eve, fell off the wagon spectacularly and didn’t get back on until March and was two stone up by then.

Come January I will have been yo-yo dieting 8 years, I am not doing it again! My lesson has been learnt Grin

Justanothernap · 02/12/2017 18:52

Stayed the same. But I know why & at least I haven't gone up (going for positive spin as opposed to commiserating with pizza)

I think you're right BCF. I'm possibly a little in denial about how much I'm eating on NFDs. I basically hate counting calories. But think I need to do the my fitness pal thing as my bad habits are so automatic I hardly realise I'm doing it.

Will plan & track for a fortnight. Then just do my normal FDs over Christmas NFDs be damned (because mince pies) and then probably plan & track for Jan. Until hopefully better choices are more automatic.

Good point re scheduling in FDs over Christmas Quacking, so easy to crash off the wagon. It's just finding a suitable day!

Also hope your mini FD went well Mini, not easy at the weekend in December!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/12/2017 18:58

It's fine to take a break over the vacation and to feast
BUT
before you do so, write in big red letters on your calendar - and post here - the date of your first FD afterwards

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 02/12/2017 20:23

The Long term 5:2 plan .....

24 weeks per year : fast properly (2 fasts no binges)
24 weeks per year : vaguely fast (at least one fast and eat mostly mindfully)
4 weeks per year : sod that, its the holidays

The cool thing with 5:2 is that a couple of "strict" weeks shifts the pounds even in folks like me who can barely see 50 in the rear view mirror
(and I'm not going to let on how old BigChoc is - but suffice to say age is no excuse for weight gain)

Bestbees · 04/12/2017 06:30

Morning! Ready for a monday FD. Anyone with me?

MelanieCheeks · 04/12/2017 07:13

I'm in!

HLBug · 04/12/2017 08:35

I was...until I forgot and had mashed banana on toast for breakfast. Hmm. Ah well. Might still go for a mini as I’ve got a busy week ahead and might not fit in 2 full FDs.

Justanothernap · 04/12/2017 08:40

I was, but now I'm full of cold & am not massively up for it. What's the accepted wisdom re FDs & colds?

HLBug · 04/12/2017 08:49

Oh dear just - the winter bugs have definitely arrived Sad

BCF will have more advice, but look after yourself and your body - plenty of sleep and water and healthy NFDs.

peachypips · 04/12/2017 08:59

Hi all. Hope you guys are all well- haven’t had time to catch up on the thread but will do so later.

Quick q- I can’t fast this week as I have loads of travelling with work and Christmas events etc. Is it ok for one week to do lower cal every day? So for example do 1200 every day this week by saving all my cals each day for one big meal in the evening? Is this going to wreck my metabolism?