5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Snowdrop - I am on a lot of drugs to control my atypical bipolar disorder. I take Lamotrigine, Mirtazapine (the fat drug!), Fluoxetine and Pregabalin (also increases appetite). When I started on the Mirtazapine my doc told me I’d gain weight. I did!

I have found it is just as possible to lose weight. For me it’s a bit slower than before but not much. Before this I was doing SW and I found that impossible. With this the beauty is that you are not dieting every day, which is one of the hard things about losing weight when you are on meds. I do two FDs at 500 and the rest of the days at 2000, and I don’t eat refined carbs. Only sugar I have is a mini bar of 90% dark choc in eve, and this majorly curbs my appetite for anything else in the eve.

Between beginning of Sept and mid Dec I lost nearly two stone (9 pounds of which I put back on in Jan ). In my first week back I have lost 3 pounds which willl be water and reducing carbs but I fully expect to lose a pound per week from now.

You can do it! We can do it together. I am 12 st 4, and at 5’3” I need to get down to around 10 st (I am muscular so don’t often get below that).

Forgot to tell you all I lost 3 pounds in my first week back! Have a lovely weekend folks. You are a great bunch.

peachypips - well done, that's amazing! And thank you for the encouragement, much appreciated.

Southeast my BMI is currently top send of 21. Still loose weight most weeks. I do have a massive stall around each stone at the 9lbs marker with every stone lost. But that’s me.

I’m a bit like you that I could of stopped at about 9 stone (I’m only 5”2) but I wanted to go lower for myself. And to especially loose more on my thighs (my bar far widest point)

Personally the lower weight I go it is a bit harder to loose but as I said I still loose most weeks and that was before Xmas and I still ate a bit of crap now and again although I’ve cleaned up my act since January 1st.

Well done Peachy that 3lbs is amazing, well done!

Well done on your SV, peachy - you have an excellent focused attitude to weight loss
Each of us can only do our best in the situation we have
there will always be some who are quicker or slower. That doesn't matter

It's a WOL, not a race
Each of us is losing with our own individual body and life circumstances

That's amazing peachy. Well 3rd fastday done of the week. Finished on about 530. Had a Ready meal this evening with steamed veg while the rest of the family have pizza. The ready meal looked small to begin with but struggled to finish it at the end. Topped it off with a 10 cal jelly and a cup
Of tea. Am bursting at the seams. Not a huge fan of ready meals and prefer to cook homemade but really couldn't be bothered today. Am so pleased I am continuing with this. Looking forward to a nice Saturday NFD tomorrow with a glass of Bordeaux. Need to investigate and keep some chocolate in the house when a craving strikes - even one small square of good quality choc would satisfy. Well done to all fasters today.

Well done on your FD, slinky
You obviously planned your menu well to be feeling full

• nothing wrong with ready meals that have decent ingredients and it makes FD calorie counting so easy

Good choc
< expert hat on here 🍫 >

Go for at least 70% cocoa content, so it contains more antioxidants and less sugar. 85 or 90% if you can.
That's very chocolatey once you get used to it
I trained myself and moved from a lifelong love of milk choc to 90%
Also, I regularly use a square to flavour my porridge

My favourite:
Vivani Panama 92% cocoa, vegan, organic, one world / fair trade, sweetened with coconut blossom instead of sugar.

Also good: Lindt Mild Excellence 90% cocoa

Thanks BCF. Where do you get the other choc from (not Lindt)? I have had 70% choc before and really like it. Will try the 80 or 90 next time.

BMI 22 on the nose. I guess I need to keep at it. Anyone done a 3:4 for a boost?

I buy the Vivani 92% from my local health-food shop.
My nearest supermarket (I'm in Germany) sells Vivani too, but only up to 70%

If you find a 92% bar and you like it, then you can get a year's stock at Amazon UK - 10 bars for £24.19 with free delivery here

southeast 4:3 boosts loss, but only if you don't eat more on NFDs
Why not chill, be patient and at least give 5:2 a 4-week trial to see the longer term loss rate, before going to a stricter regime

Lidl do an 85% dark chocolate which is a) to die for b) very cheap !

Thanks carfish pretty sure I tried the 70% from Aldi too and was great. Will pop along and pick up some 85%. Thanks

Sorry I meant Lidl. But actually have had from both.

Blimey just looked up that Lindt chocolate 90% and it’s very very low in carbs to the normal crap I normally eat. Is it very rich?

I’m not a massive lover of dark chocolate but this may be the way to go in future if it savers the waist line!

And what's the damage in calories?

Good Morning everyone

Ive been thinking of ways to lead into this but because Im lost for words Im just going to jump in and say - I started 5:2 on Monday and yesterday morning when I weighed myself and I'd lost just under 5kg in 4 days. Im aware that it may be hard to believe, I can hardly believe it myself, but its a fact.

Id decided a few pages back I wasnt going to weigh myself till my next Dr's appt at the end of Feb but yesterday when two of my children came round for breakfast the first thing they said was - jeez mama, that dress is huge on you and your tummy has really shrunk. I was so confused that I did as they suggested and I got on the scales and of course I ended up even more confused by the scales so I had the batteries changed before making everyone else in the house stand on them as well. There's absolutely no doubt about it - Ive lot just under 5 kgs in 4 days.

That them got me to thinking of other changes Ive noticed and please excuse me if this is too much information but my urine has been different for a few days now, its odour has changed, and Im assuming thats why my ladies bits don't seem as irritated as they were starting to feel recently. Perhaps because I've not been having 'sugar' there is none to come out of me and its not affecting my ladies bits via my urine.

Anyway, I checked with my son in law and he assured me its entirely possible to have lost this weight, and that it will have done wonders for my BP already because what's has happened is that Ive lost just under 5 litres of water and my body isn't having to work so hard now to pump my blood around.

Today is the day we have out monthly family lunch at my sister in laws and Ive already decided Im not going to have the desserts, and if I am tempted Im going to imagine myself peeing sugar water and not feeling very comfy later on today.

Oh and as daft as it may sound Im already thinking about where I'll go to have my excess skin removed from what will probably be all over once Ive got rid of the excess weight. Ive never felt so positive before.

Sorry for TMI but who knows, maybe it will ring a bell with someone who's not wanted to mention it probably for good reason

Well done Fionne!

Great scale a nd NS victories!

Southeastlondonmum - I'm at BMI 22.4 and have around 10 lbs to go. My aim is to get down to target weight by May as I figure it's going to take ages to shift them. That and I'm taking Easter holidays off.

My weight needs to come almost entirely off my stomach area.

Fionne that's brilliant, I'm really happy for you! This WOE absolutely changes lives

I am worried now, lots of you with very low bmi! I am rigjt at the top of mine and have never been less that 23.5. At that point people were saying 'you have no arse'!
Is there something to be said for different people having different good weight points? I am 5.3ish and medium build if wrist measurement is to be believed.

Definitely Bestbees.

I'm 5'8 and a medium build. I have a classic athlete body with broad shoulders, narrow hips, not much of a waist and skinny legs. Even when I had a BMI of 26 I still had thigh and calf gap. All my weight goes right on my tummy and boobs. I'm hoping to drop a few cup sizes from my start point of 36E.

Brilliant SV, Fionne Congratulations
and your "downstairs" NSV - so important for quality of life, but also strongly suggests improvements in blood sugar.

These threads have had a couple of people who lost 10-14 lb the first week of 5:2 - they had similar health issues to you.
So, I did hope you would also have a major loss and also that you will start to see lower BP within a few days or so.

Mosely wrote that one man lost 19 lb (!) the first week of BSD - often where the biggest loss happens - but it calmed down to a still respectable 25 lb total after 8 weeks
So, his first week was a massive loss, which then dropped to 1-4 lb weekly, which was almost all pure fat loss.

imo, in your case, 5:2 BSD has the health benefits of BSD, but is gentler and much more suitable for you.

Yes, we know this huge initial loss will be almost all retained water, but that is a major cause of high BP
Do stay focused on 5:2 and on low carb mediterranean:

Moderate protein, of good quality - boost fish, eggs
Several portions of different veg - aim for 5-7 on NFDs
sensible amounts of lower sugar fruit
unsalted nuts
unflavoured Greek yoghurt

If you nail this, this rapid loss should continue until the excess water is gone - which may take one or two weeks or several -
then you will be losing mostly fat with just a little water, so scales change then may be 1-2 lb weekly, which still mounts up

You have taken the first important step, but your BP /preT2 are nowhere near "cured"
Those sugary treats at your family lunch may be delicious, but your health determines the quality of the rest of your life
You are absolutely right:
In your particular case, even one dose of sugar can set your health back, so just politely but firmly refuse.

Good luck on your journey back to good health and keep posting here for support !

Yes have nothing to lose on top half. Bum and thighs really need work

bestbees The "ideal" weight is of course very individual

It depends on frame size - which is the width of you skeleton
and on how much muscle you have on that skeleton.
Also of course what you can comfortably sustain in your daily life without being too stressed

Go for the BMI that you think is right for you as a unique individual
not the BMI for someone here, or for your best mate, or work colleague.

You can also visualise different body goals, using links under the OP section "How to Start"
e.g. 3D BMII* which lets you set height and goal weight, then see how you would look by setting shape = ripped through average to fat

Once you are at - or near - officially healthy BMI (18 - 24.9) I recommend focusing more on waist than scale
Waist indicates the amount of visceral fat (around internal organs) and hence is important for health
it obviously also makes a major difference to overall shape and how your clothes hang.

Measure your waist at the narrowest point (usually 2" above the navel)
First aim: waist less than half your height