5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Sounds like a breakfast & supper system will work well for you on FDs, Olive

Just finished my 2nd FD of the week. Did about 700 cals on Monday and 600 today. I'm still breastfeeding once a day and not getting much sleep so this feels about right. Had one if those calorie counted m and s meals and it was delicious!!
It's good coming back to this and it's great to realise a lot of the good habits I learned first time round such as no snacking and no fizzy drinks have stayed with me.

Wow busy thread, love reading how everyone's been getting on. Second fd of the week today. Back in work now as mat leave has ended. No snacking, & FDs, much easier in work. Which is weird as I felt busier at home.. possibly was more frantic & shoving chocolate in my face to keep up!

Hmmmmm - am wondering what the texture of chia seeds soaked overnight could possible be. My OH and I still both shudder with the memory of being forced to eat sago pudding at primary school ..... yuk yuk yuk.

FD done; finished on 517 calories according to MFP but feeling decidedly hungry still. Am filling up on hot tea, waiting for midnight when I can book my Friday morning gym class and then get an early night.

I did my first FD yesterday and at 800 calories it was fine but truth be told I don't think I could have done a 500 one.

Breakfast - 2 egg mushroom omelette

Lunch - Roast Chicken with salad leaves, beetroot and cherry tomatoes. A pear.

Dinner - Homemade Hummus with a slice of Norlander bread and cherry tomatoes on the side.

Im really enjoying going a minimum of 4 hours between meals.

Phew. First weight in after taking a month off and my weight has stayed the same. Now I just need to get on and lose the last 10 lbs or so.

That's good to hear justanother - I'm back at work mid-Feb and I'm really not sure how my FDs are going to go.

Well done to everyone this week, especially the new members who are really getting into the swing of things. Another 1lb off for me at today's weigh in.

Had friends over last night and so definitely ate and drank over TDEE.

Having a mini FD today - aiming for 700 and a glass of wine!

Xxxxx

Checking in for 3rd FD of the week. Feeling ready for this. After the loss of the first FD weight has just fluctuated up and down but no further loss despite ADF for a week and a half. This is my 6th FD. But TOM and clothes feeling looser so hey ho just going to keep on keeping on. Best of luck today for fasters.

Keep going slinky, hopefully you will experience a whoosh of weight loss.

Mo4D

HLBug what type of work do you do?

I'm in a standard office job and find work FDs pretty easy as I just work through lunch and moving from meeting to meeting keeps me distracted. The worst are lunch meetings as I don't want to waste FD calories on crappy sandwiches. I do drink a lot of black tea / coffee / herbal tea and water on those days though.

hello! I'm new-ish to this...

I tried it a few times last year and cracked very early in the fasting day.

this week I managed one day without eating anything till 4pm and it was all fine actually.

Today is my second day.

I really want this to work because it's so practical and easy. In fact, I'd love to turn into one of those people who go hours without eating and don't have any issues with it. My DP has the kind of job where this happens and doesn't give two hoots, just says "oh I can eat whenever"..

I want to be those people!! Tell me inspiring stories please...?

Ideally I need to lose at least 4 stone I've got so used to being overweight I've kind of forgotten I am overweight if you know what I mean.

Really good No Snacking NSVs from everyone and being mindful about fizz

Well done on your 1st FD, Fionne Excellent menu plan.

Congrats on your SV, bug You've made steady progress for a long time now
Have you checked how many inches you've lost wince you started ?

Well done on sts over Christmas, mother, croaking
That's a good lifestyle NSV which indicates you are learning how to eat the right amount for your body

700 cals for your BF stage is fine, positivity especially with disrupted sleep

Don't worry, slinky Loose clothes sounds a positive NSV
Most women retain a few lb water at totm, due to the hormonal changes
This water is normally fully released the first FD after the totm has fully ended.
So you should see it on the scales in the days after that FD
Your would probably then also lose an inch or so.

Hi snowdrop.

I find that 5:2 helps with this as it reminds you that you are not going to starve. But also what actual hunger is. For ages i woukd think I was hungry 2hours after a meal. I know now it is just digestion and learnt what is real hunger and what will pass. I also have found that cutting carbs helps along with big, delicious and nitrious meals.

E.g. today i have had a 3 egg mushroom omlette and a banana with a full fat flat white.

Lunch will be soup, mungbean humous, veg, greek yog and seeds and fruit.

Dinner will be thai fishcakes with remoulade.

So not actual low carb, but also very little junky carbs i.e. no sugar or bread.

Good luck!

< Oops typo > bug since you started

Just checking in with today's goals, bearing in mind it is Friday wine evening.

Gym class - done. Otherwise, no snacks, no snacks, no snacks. Easy 30 min run this evening. No snacks.

Have a good day everyone.

Hi all,
Returning to this thread after a period of 5:2 for major surgery (all now recovered thankfully). I generally fast for health but have a small amount to lose for ideal weight. First week lost 3lbs after Christmas (water and choc excess no doubt). This week despite two fast days under 500 Cals and being under calories expended for my NFD (tracking and weighing all calories on fit bit), I haven't lost a pound. What to do?? So frustrating

Welcome, snowdrop
A lot of this WOL is about changing your mindset permanently.
You can do this and you will feel so much better with this WOL.

Don't fear natural hunger.
For many millennia, it used to be normal to feel hungry for an hour or so before meals - humans evolved like this
and it's how I was brought up in the 1950s and 1960s.

Constant snacking is not a part of any traditional food culture,
but Big Food's hunger for ever bigger profits created the new culture of snacks, fast food and huge portions.
Our bodies couldn't evolve to cope with this - evolution occurs over millenia

Lots of tips and info in the OP.
Check out the links under "How to Start", to the 3D body viz calculators, to visualise your future bod

Also, why not read the success stories on our 5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread
Also reports there from longterm 5:2ers there on how they have successfully maintained for years

Several people have started at high BMI and successfully lost several stone on 5:2.

_tips for those with quite a bit to lose:^

• Don't look at the total amount you want to lose.
  . Set lots of mini-goals and we'll celebrate with you as you nail each one:
  5 lb, 10lb, a stone
  . with a big boost as you smash down into each new BMI range

• When you start, measure your waist at the narrowest point (usually 2" above the navel), hips, bust too
  Monitoring how many inches you are losing helps keep up the motivation

• Be patient, chill and settle in for the longterm
  Your weight took years to gain, so it will take sevral months to lose safely - and STAY lost.

Welcome back, southeast Good to hear you recovered so well from your surgery

If you only have a small amount to reach goal, then are you already within healthy BMI ?
Already have waist (at narrowest point) less than half your height ?

If either of these is the case, then progress is usually slower than it was previously, when you had more bodyfat available to burn.

Also, some people - especially those nearing goal - lose in fits and starts, rather than a constant weekly amount
You lost a good chunk the first week for someone not really overweight
So your body is consolidating that loss until it is ready to lose

General advice
Chill and be patient. You can get to goal
The overall trend over 2-3 weeks should be downward
but in your case, the average weekly loss over time may be under 1lb weekly

especially as your body may only grudgingly give up fat stores for some time after major illness / surgery

Calories

• On FDs, regardless of exercise, only have 500 cals
• On NFDs, don't rely on gadgets or calculators wrt "calories expended" - they are often inaccurate Instead, this is your average NFD target: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think) and don't "eat back" any calories over this

good habits to help

• no snacking or grazing, ever Alcohol, lattes, treats, even fruit should always be part of a meal, not between meals
• Veg: Eat masses of different veg, aiming for at least 5 portions per day, 7 some days No more than 2 portions fruit daily though
• Water: Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking' No more than one 330 ml can or glass of fizzy drink, even diet versions - cut out fizz if you can
• Booze: Always stay within NHS alcohol guidelines on NFDs and be sensible about treat frequency and portion size
• Exercise: try to have at least a short daily walk outside; build up to more on some days, as you feel fitter

thanks all

I won't get too far into the technical stuff as it's all rather dull

my weight was gained very fast due to antidepressants which I'm still on. So I will be interested to see what happens with this.

I think it took a couple of false starts last year because I didn't really see the advantages but increasingly I find that it would just be easier to do so many things if I didn't think "oh I'll be hungry if I time my day that way" (lots of freelance and odd jobs)

and I hate eating in the office and I hate eating on public transport so there's a lot of pluses. Really I would like to be like my dad who could do a whole long day on a black coffee, then work out after work, then eat dinner - and he is the sort who sleeps as soon as his head hits the pillow and not wake up till waking up time whereas I have constant insomnia.

So on my fast day last week, I followed that pattern - sort of. I had a green juice and some yogurt at 4pm (which is more than he'd have) did my workout about 6pm, ate a dinner at 8pm and was actually properly asleep the whole night and felt good in the morning.

as for whoever invented snacking - what a pity. I have spent years having a bit of food at 4pm to bridge the gap between lunch and dinner and I have no idea why.

interestingly, the day after last week's fast day, I had 5 hours between breakfast and lunch and no hunger at all.

Croaking I'm also in a predominantly office based role. If I'm busy I'll be fine and dashing around between meetings, but sometimes workload can be slow so on those days time drags and I might struggle. Must. Not. Snack.

BCF I've just measured my waist now and I'm currently sitting at about 30 inches so a 4 inch drop from July when I started. I know nothing about inch loss - does that sound about right for a 2st 11lb loss? My height is 5ft 4 if that makes any difference.

actually is anyone here in that situation - gained weight from meds? I must admit half of it is from meds and the other half was me going oh fuck it, I can't be arsed trying to diet.... but yes, I do wonder if I am being realistic about what I can do while on these meds.

Thanks BCF. Really helpful advice. Yes I'm well within healthy BMI. Most people would stop here but would just like to reach a little lower just to lose a little more from my thighs!! I suppose I need to accept that I just need to take it slow and steady. I'm able to exercise more now so that will help.

Hi there southeast
My BMI is around 22.5 so getting enough of a deficit to lose weight is tough
but it can be done