5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Try Mosely's 5:2 BSD for 4 weeks say

Ye gods, how many of these 5:2 things are there? Is this the one that confused me in the first place?

And If I do the normal 5NFD then 2FD at 800 calories as up above am I right in thinking I'll be doing the 5:2BSD?

Phew. I think Im starting to understand it all.

Raw pomegranate seeds per 100g: 19g carbs, 14g sugar, 83 cals

Check how much you use per portion of your dressing

Looks an NFD food to me

5:2 BSD is different minly because of the type of food on NFDs

On normal 5:2, you eat "normal" food on the 5 NFDs
On 5:2 BSD, you keep to low carb Mediterranean every day, including the 5 NFDs, even though those are around TDEE

On 800 NFDs, you can certainly have say a boiled egg & tomato for breakfast before you leave, so you can take your meds

I do 5:2 BSD although I am not diabetic- purely because I feel so much better low-ish carb. I don’t eat the big five as far as possible even on NFDs - no sugar, bread, pasta rice or white potatoes.

I’m kind of hoping this will speed things up.

Good NSV today. My Fitbit arrived amid much excitement from me and the boys, and it really does encourage you to move! I went for a lunchtime walk to rack up my steps which I never normally do.

Am on a FB group that is really confusing me. On there they say that ADF is good. They also say you can eat as much as you like on NFDs even when doing the 5:2 as long as it’s low carb.

Help! I’m currently doing low-ish carb, 5:2, not paying much attention to TDEE.

Well done on your NSV Peachy, it really does motivate you and that’s a fantastic thing.

I’m chuffed to bits today as managed 2.1Mile Run. I had to dig really deep to do it as I’m running on empty. I’m actually going to do a FD today will be over with 550 cals but may as well seeing as I’ve got this far already.

I didn’t actually know 5:2 BSD was a thing. Glad it is as I’m doing it now. Upped my calories from last weeks 800 cal BSD on Monday and have still been eating that WOE but more calories. I continued as I feel great and much more full of energy and I hadn’t missed carbs at all was a nice rest after Xmas.

I’m having a meal out next week have planned to have a FD the following day but will continue that until the end of the month.

Second FD today. Only a large apple (100 cals) and milk in one tea so far. I'm finding it much easier now I have stopped having food till lunchtime on NFDs as it just feels like a normal day anyway till lunchtime has passed.
Some chicken and veg tonight and an early night I think.
Resisting the temptation to get on the scales till Sunday as it always messes with my head whichever direction it's gone in !!
Thanks for posting everybody. Really helps motivate me to know we're all in it together

I am on my second FD of the week and it is going well so far.

My danger zone is going to be the charity committee meeting I have this evening:

there will be wine, loads of nibbly snacks, and it will go on for hours which will prevent me going to bed early which I usually do on a FD.

My mantra will be that there is no point fasting all day successfully to then blow it in the evening. I hope this works!!

Also Lamb just this once it might be helpful to say that you are not allowed carbs or sugar tonight- it limits your options on a buffet!

Scales mess with me too. I only weigh every couple of weeks- tomorrow is d-day.

Well done on your run quacking!

OMG carfish & Blossom it’s only Wednesday and your on your both on your second FD. Wow that is dedication.

Thanks Peachy. And best of luck for your weigh in tomorrow I’m looking forward to seeing your loss.

Thanks quacking

Is it ok to have a hot drink made with Marmite in place of Bovril ? I don't have any and it would be a nice change from herbal teas .
Thanks

Yesterday was tough, which was a bit of a shock as I always found FDs easy, I could go all day and just have an evening meal, but I need to eat in the mornings to take my medication and I felt ravenous by 4pm.

Hope the scales are kind to you tomorrow peachy.

Hard if you have to eat first thing - I would find that hard :( . Maybe BCF or Quacking have some helpful advice - they usually do !

Carfish I can’t see why not. Marmite is very low calorie and BCF recommends it especially on FDs I think for the salt content to control headaches? Don’t quote me on that tho but I’m sure I’ve read that. Also I read lots on Misso paste in hot water for a drink, no idea what it is tho but I’ve seen it in the supermarket.

Olive what would you normally have for breakfast? I don’t do breakfast ever but I have my breakfast for lunch and usually have eggs. Boiled or scrambled usually Good protein low cal and keeps me going for ages.

Or if you need a grab and go what about a yoghurt full fat natural yoghurt is yummy. I love mine with raw porridge oats or raw Musli but I don’t have it often as I love it and personally my portion control is iffy and I’d happily eat tonnes of it

iamblossom
My danger zone is going to be the charity committee meeting I have this evening: there will be wine, loads of nibbly snacks, and it will go on for hours
Watch what everybody does before they stick their fingers into the bowls ....
have they just closed the boot of a muddy car
or patted the dog
or changed their shoes
do you still want to eat food they have touched?

TIP that made me laugh lol!

I haven't eaten all day - just haven't felt like it. Going to enjoy a chicken wrap and fries for dinner though. NFD today

FD tomorrow

Well done on your run, duck

Early night is always good, carfish
If scales worry you, then you could weigh every 4 weeks say, just go by clothes fit in between
Yes, have Marmite as a drink if you like - a teasp is about 10cals, same as a Bovril cube

Olive I suggest just a boiled egg for FD breakfast, to take your meds - only about 80 cals, but contains all you need
Alternatively, Mosely actually did his FDs by having breakfast & supper, no lunch - because he wanted to eat with the family. So you could divide up your cals into those 2 small meals

Stay focused at the charity snackfest, blossom
Focus on how proud you'll be afterwards, if you don't succumb to the Whispers of Doom at the snack tables

If you decide to partake - then maybe a piece of lean protein - nothing breaded, sweet or deepfried

• and pile on crunchy veg like celery & carrots - chew really well

Except for vinegar / lemon, I'd avoid dressings as they can add 100s of cals to veg

If you want to skip eating entirely, this is our 5:2 mantra to help:

Communal food is covered in invisible POO crumbs and SNOT smears
(applies to staffroom cake & bikkies too )

For an FD breakfast, olive, go very low carb to minimise insulin spikes and hence avoid hunger for longer
Hence the egg, rather than yoghurt, oats or fruit

If you make it one of your 2 meals, then have 1-2 eggs with masses of low cal veg, e.g omelette with spinach, peppers & mushrooms

peachy Your "low-medium carb 5:2" sounds pretty healthy, cutting right back on junk and lower quality carbs, but eating sensible portions of higher quality carbs -and masses of veg, natch.

Providing you aren't consuming too much, that system works for most folk who don't have significant blood sugar / insulin issues.
It's basically what I do

Count cals on NFDs or not ?

Since you are not desperate to lose quickly,
I advise that on NFDs you eat until satisfied - not stuffed - and stop eating whenever you are no longer hungry,
Keep to the tips about “no snacking” and meals at least 4 hrs apart.

• If that system loses weight for you, then no reason to mfp

• However, if progress stops after a few weeks and hasn't resumed after at least 2 weeks,
  then I recommend mfp for at least a full week, as a reality check on portion size, hidden calorie bombs, total sugar, total calories on junk & booze

• it’s almost always NFDs that are the problem.

Then train yourself, with mfp if it helps, to eat around TDEE on NFDs
This habit is essential for longterm weight management, on any WOE.

ADF vs 5:2
ADF is fine for those who have no food issues and are fairly disciplined, as they will usually lose more quickly than on 5:2
BUT:

• some folk eat back all the extra FDs on their NFDs and don’t lose much

• some get into unhealthy binge / starve cycles

• It depends whether “eating as much as you want on NFDs” averages 100-120% TDEE, which is fine for ADF
  Or more.

• And whether you can afterward eat within TDEE, or stay on ADF for life - which is also ok.

• I advise 5:2 after ADF, to help segue into maintenance.

Some folk try ADF because they far exceed TDEE on 5:2 NFDs and don’t want to train themselves to eat sensibly for their body.
They learn nothing on ADF, so they regain the weight as soon as they stop.

low carb
As for ADF and indeed for 5:2, it’s a case of whether “as much as you want” is within your TDEE

Tall male bodybuilders almost never have to count cals on any of these WOEs

Small sedentary females, especially with a long history of dieting, often do.
Atkins wrote in his book “if she - and it is almost always a she - doesn’t lose on ordinary low carb ... “
then he describes his 1000 cal low carb diet. Another VLCD.

Jeff Bolek, who took over after Atkins died, says in a footnote in the New Atkins Revolution (page 57 in my old copy iirc) that most women will lose on 1600 or 1800 low carb cals and that most find that is adequate

Low carb guru Michael Eades wrote in his blog in 2008 / 2009 that some people genuinely do not feel satiated by fat.
Totally individual.

imo, it probably depends on your insulin metabolism and how efficient your body is at extracting its own fat for fuel, in the absence of most carbs.
If fat doesn’t do this for you, then “eating all you want” even of fat, can be 1000s of cals too many each week,

So, this is a known issue among leading low careers who have researched deeply.

Wow that’s incredibly helpful thank you! I’m going to cut and paste that into my notes.

From your advice I’m going to carry on as I am unless I don’t lose. Then I’ll reassess and MFP as necessary.

Think I’ll give ADF a miss at the mo as I need to ensure my TDEE is correct.

Jeff Volek < typo in surname >

Thanks for all the tips!

Amazingly the snacks turned out to be cashew nuts and raisins and a bowl of chocolates money!

I had a bottle of becks, and then another of becks Blue so low alcohol and low calorie - I drove so didn't have any wine. And had a couple of handfuls of raisins.

So I think I finish on about 650, which considering I had such a good fd on Monday I am pleased with.

Whoever said being on the second one of the week by weds - I find getting them out of the way really works for me! Having said that I am only in week once again being a lapsed 5:2er so we will see if I can manage it again next week!

Really pleased and proud of myself though, I definitely need to be in the right mindset to do his way of eating.

So today was:

2 hard boiled eggs at 3pm
Tin of chicken noodle soup and 4 rice cakes at 7pm
Two small beers (one low cal) and some raisins

And in bed hurrah!

blossom Those nuts would have been ideal for an FD, if you wanted something.

In future, do try to avoid alcohol completely on FDs

• One health benefit of 5:2 is that it - normally - ensures at least 2 alcohol free days per week.

• There is no research whatsoever on VLC days with alcohol, so we don't know e.g. if an FD worsens the impact / damage to the liver

• We know that alcohol stops all fat-burning until the liver has processed all the toxic byproducts, so it probably reduces the amount of fat-burning on that FD

Good morning

I was wondering how a NFD would be divided up into Carbs, Protein, Fats percentage wise? I dont want to do anything like 20% carbs but i do want reduces carbs at a sensible amount.

I hope everyone has a good day, its my first FD and Im looking forward to giving it a go.

Thank you.

Good FD yesterday. One meal of sea bass and masses of courgettes and hangful of grapes. Ate an apple after 1.5hr yoga class as i thought i wouldn't sleep otherwise.

Avoiding weighing too much at the moment and focusig on habits rather than weight loss as i want this to be long term not a crash diet.

I agree about geting FD overwith mon and wed, though feel like i need an extra mini meal on the tues to get through at the moment. Still better thab snacking?

Plan today is 3egg scrambled with mushroom and spinach for breakfast. Zumba and swim, lunch sardine salad, greek yog and fruit. Dinner is parnsnip soup, mung bean hummus and veg and maybe cheese and crackers. Prob fruit too. Trying to get meals big and filling