5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

HLbug
Have a nice big drink of hot sugar free squash / herbal tea : it will rehydrate you and let you sleep better

I like lemon or balsamic vinegar on salad without oil

Well done, bug Herbal tea sounds good

I'm drinking hibiscus tea atm

• granny it's established science that 3 cups per day help high BP (I just find it delic, without any sweetener)

'm drinking hibiscus tea atm
- granny it's established science that 3 cups per day help high BP (I just find it delic, without any sweetener)

Where I live its part of our day to day diet and we drink it hot as a tea or cold as a concentrated juice. Its lovely.

I like lemon or balsamic vinegar on salad without oil

Pomegranate Molasses is another alternative. Its yummy.

Pomegranate Molasses is another alternative. Its yummy.
sugar syrup in other words

NFD here today. Had two chicken spring rolls for lunch and a large wrap - half was with a mixed kebab (chicken, donor and kofta) and the other half was peri peri chicken. Was delicious but ate too much - I feel stuffed nearly two hours later. Getting to bed shortly

Oh the wraps were for dinner! and from a Turkish place

Hold on there Bug, today’s nearly over.

NFD here, had a yummy tea of smoked salmon, egg, tomatoes stuffed mushroom and salad it was the best.

I did some HIIT again this morning as I’m really starting to enjoy it but decided to try it on a empty stomach and it seemed to make absolutely no difference what so ever so I may continue to do that.

One thing I have massively noticed is I have always suffered from awful cellulite on the top of my legs. In the past no dieting or exercise has touched it but it’s almost completely disappeared I am astonished and wonder what has happened.

Quacking what sort of HIT training do you do?

Purple - I’ve incorporated it into my running. I do 30 seconds very slow jog (can easily walk it with big paces) then go super fast for 30 second. I do this for about 20-25 mins. Not that it gets me any further than normal jogging it just makes the time go really quick as I get bored and give up very easily.

Atm I’m only doing about 1.3 Miles a day.

sugar syrup in other words

No. The (real) pomegranate molasses I’m referring to is made from just the seeds of a pomegranate and some salt to taste. The end result is sour. Not sweet.

Jeez, well I woke up in the middle of the night absolutely ravenous after going to be with 590 calories to spare and I did consider getting up to eat but I managed to persuade myself to stay put. The result is that Ive just had a breakfast that was of the 'I could eat a scabby horse' variety - cornflakes and milk followed by a cheese and tomato toastie. It came in at 900 calories and slid down without touching the sides. I may even have licked my fingers a few times when eating the toastie.

Yesterday I felt the effect of cutting out sugar and I was in bed most of the day shaking and sweating but I did laugh when one of mum sons carers said to me, oh I felt like that today and it was so bad I had to have a snickers.

Im feeling quietly pleased with myself because I think I found will power a couple of times.

Morning all. A very hungry day yesterday. Had a terrible headache and so ate at 12 but rather than snacking had all my lunch. A big dinner and crackers a d cheese at 9 after 50 lengths and yoga. Seeing it aas four meals around 4 hours apart and all good food, no sugar etc.

FD today and a new yoga class tonight.

Salad dressing i am happy with just vinager most of the time.

Fionne you could add those extra cals by adding some thing like hot milk with a pinch of cinnamon before bed? Might stop you waking but also doesnt feel like eating if that makes sense?

Good luck to anyone else fasting today!

Marking my place for accountability today!

And me. Feeling rough. Hoping today gets better.

fionne
Look on the back of the bottle .... 50% sugar !!!
It may taste sour but its full of sugar ;-)

Fionne Some suggestions for your particular situation:

1. I strongly recommend you have 800 cal FDs in 3 small lowish carb meals: Mosely says in his BSD that those with serious blood sugar control issues usually need 800 not 500 cals and 3 small meals

You absolutely should NOT be in bed shaking, so do go to 800 cals
Please do NOT try to tough it out with 500
Once your doctor says your blood sugar is OK, then you can move to 500 cals.

2. Also, before an FD, plan your entire FD menu and your breakfast on the NFD.
   So you never just have whatever is quickest, because you are starving

3. Meals choices: Most breakfast cereals are not a good choice - too high sugar
   if you really like cereal, have it as the dessert it really is, with lunch

For that NFD breakfast, have 3 eggs scrambled / veg omelette - or you can even boil eggs the day before - and have plenty of veg, e.g. tomato & mushrooms, or spinach
or have porridge, preferably not instant and definitely not the ready flavoured kind, with fruit
or avocado & sardines / salmon on toast

To lower GI, choose rye or wholegrain toast, not ordinary white bread

lunch and supper: good starchy carbs are red / brown rice, quinoa, potatoes, sweet potatoes - especially with skin - but for both, avoid mash or deep-fried

4. iirc - was that you - on other NFDs who had a banana when out to stop dizziness, then a mid-morning breakfast, then lunch ?
   If so, have your full breakfast before you go out, then nothing until lunch
   With your blood sugar issues, you need breakfast first, at least before they improve

5. Avoid tropical fruits like banana or mango - too high sugar (Mosely advice for BSD)
   Instead have lower sugar fruit. Good choices areberries, apple, pear, clementine etc
   If you are out, most places have a pot of fruit salad or melon - better choice than banana

6. Prep a bag (measure out say 20-30g) unsalted almonds to take whenever you are out
   If you feel faint / headachy etc, have these
   Will help stabilise blood sugar and is a much better choice than fruit

Oh and are you glugging a teasp or two of Marmite on FDs ?
This can help avoid dizziness / headaches that can come from lower carb and / or fasting.

A mug of hot Beef Bovril is another useful addition between meals - too few cals to count as a snack

Pomegranate Molasses is very concentrated
So, even without added sugar, it looks rather high cal and high carb for an FD
It seems about 40 cals per tbsp, all carbs

I'd count it as a fruit portion, FD or NFD - but better for NFD and then add cold-pressed virgin olive oil if you have cals to spare

On FDs, I recommend lemon or vinegar, which have far fewer cals

oops, ipad hiccupped and I see tip already said that !

Suggestion for anyone with pre-T2 / serious blood sugar issues:

Try Mosely's 5:2 BSD for 4 weeks say
It has exactly the same low carb Mediterranean food as BSD, but you have 5 NFDs in which you eat up to TDEE
Much gentler and more doable than BSD itself.
It can teach good longterm habits

Look on the back of the bottle .... 50% •sugar !!!*
It may taste sour but its full of sugar

The one I use is homemade.

BCF, thank you for taking the time to write that very welcome post.

I'll go through it point by point so I dont need to put things in bold.

I had decided I was going to do an 800 FD based on something you said the other day. I also felt it would be better for me.

Re the shaking yesterday - I really do think it was sugar withdrawal. Im feeling fine today.

I always have a menu plan so Im never unsure of what Im going to eat. Its just the way the house is run.

Cornflakes are the only cereal I'll apart from porridge and even then I have the cornflakes a couple of times a month - and never with sugar. Porridge is made the Scottish way with water and salt, then a splash of milk. In fact its funny I have such a sweet tooth because I haven't even had sugar in tea or coffee since I was about 15. Neither do I eat honey or jams. Theyre too sweet. I like my sugar in chocolate form.

The breakfast you've mentioned are spot on for what Id normally have and I only ever have real porridge, not the instant stuff.

Bread - always norlander.

The good carbs - yes, I have them already but I will admit to liking mashed potato once or twice a week. Chips and other fried stuff - no.

My breakfast is usually eaten before I go out on my grandsons school run at 7.15. Its made for me and Im never known to leave the house without having eaten it. Food is the first thing I'd think about when I opened my eyes. The day I had the banana was due to finding my feet on the second day of the 5:2. I also have to eat first thing in order to be able to take my medication. It can only be taken after food.

Mango I only eat seasonally which is 3 months of the year and even then not every day. Fruit wise its berries and melon. I had the banana because it was a better choice than the muffin also sitting on the counter.

Almonds and other nuts - sadly I dont like them though I can manage cashews. Will keep some in a bag to take out with me.

I haven't done a non fast day yet. My first one is tomorrow. Will I have marmite? No. It dont like it. But, I have no qualms about making a nice homemade stock to sip on.

The pomegranate molasses. It never occurred to me about the one made with sugar which is not the one we make at home just with salt and pomegranate seeds.

Olive oil is used a lot where I live but Im generally happy with some lemon on a salad.

Again, thank you for giving me so much of your time. Its really appreciated.

Hand - I eat pickled onions on FDs too! Love the spicy ones.

Re salad I use cider vinegar.

FD today. 100 cals of milk, two eggs with salad for dinner. Yum.