5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks quacking well I was hoping to do ADF but if I struggle with that I will scale back to the 4:3 so do the 3 fasts day. And if not then at least 5:2.

It's interesting when I first started 5:2 a few years ago i gave up when I hit a plateau and the daily weighing wasn't helpful. But subsequent 5:2s I have found that I now can be on a plateau for several weeks but can physically feel my shape changing (and not me just imagining it). So the daily weighing has actually helped me understand my body more.

I can fluctuate so much that I could put that 2kg back on tomorrow. But overall trend is down and the real good feeling is when I can start feeling lighter in myself and less bloated. Feeling very positive today.

Well done on your SV, slinky, oddsocks
Excellent start for both of you

Can I have some advice on ryvita and flavoured yoghurt? On the forum of the 5:2 book it says yes to both but work colleague says no

oddsocks
You can eat anything you like.
There are no forbidden foods.
It all comes down to personal preference and what works for you.

Then again it sounds like a foul combination

oddsocks On FDs, only alcohol and junk food are banned
On NFDs, nothing is banned

Plain full-fat Greek yoghurt is much more filling, creamier and tastier than a low-fat "diet" yoghurt stuffed with sugar or artificial additives.
Even yoghurt with fruit is normally packed with extra sugar, maybe disguised in the ingredients list as glucose, dextrose, honey etc

Suggestion: Add your own fruit, e.g. berries, to plain yoghurt and sprinkle with a few plain flaked almonds and cinammon (pure cinammon, without added sugar) YUM

What to Eat ?
If you've been dieting for years, your mindset may be fixed on packaged '`diet" food, especially low fat.
Forget that frankenfood - it's time to enjoy your food now !
Aim to eat "normal" minimally processed food - That helps avoid most junk

Healthy Boost

• Veg: Half of your plate on FDs and NFDs On NFDs, build up to 5 different veg and 1-2 fruit. More veg is even better ! FDs: stirfries, stews, salads - pack in the veg
• Beans, peas, lentils Help regulate blood sugar. Healthy & filling
• Yoghurt - full-fat unflavoured, Greek is especially creamy

NO need for

• diet yoghurts, diet spreads - less taste, less datisfying. Have a smaller amount of the full-fat food and enjoy !
• cereal bars - "Nearly Naked" etc are just a processed sweet, not as healthy as real food
• diet breakfast cereals - "Special K" etc usually sugary, low nutrition, that don't fill you for long
• protein shakes or smoothies Ok if you want something right after the gym, or as an alternative to a dessert or latte but not necessary in a normal diet

TalkinPeace Ha Ha!!

Just wondering as I was eating a Miller light yogurt at work on a NFD as my colleague is doing low carb said no because of the sugar

She also said no to Ryvita. I was eating some as i like the newer varieties of Ryvita..

Oddsocks if your used to muller lights you have not lived until you try Full fat natural yoghurt. OMG it’s amazing but I suppose that would be if you like plain yoghurt. It’s so creamy and just delicious.

I don’t buy it often as a kg tub can be eaten by me in 2 days as it is just so much nicer than anything I’ve tried in the past. Up until last year all we ever bought was low fat everything so full fat is still a revelation to me and I can’t believe what I was missing.

I didn’t do a run today so I’ve held off until my dinner, gonna throw in a FD for good measure and will dream of scales being kind to me tomorrow.

Hi All
I'm coming back to join in again.
I was diagnosed with CML {chronic myeloid leukemia} at the beginning of August and am finally getting back to normal energy levels, I have managed to keep off most of the weight I lost previously, I've put about 8 lbs. I really need to get it gone again and a bit more by March as I need another bone marrow biopsy and they had real problems with getting the previous sample due to what the doctor referred to as "lady padding" around my hips.
The plan is to fast Tuesdays and Saturdays and slowly reintroduce exercise as my energy levels increase.

Welcome Olive, and I’m terribly sorry to hear your news.

Some great support on here on FDs to keep us all going.

(((( Olive ))))
My dad had CML for 13 years so you have lots of time to get fit and healthy.
Joking apart, find time for yoga, pilates and mindfulness as all of them are good for muscle tone and bloodflow around the body.
In terms of 5:2 your best bet is to become mildly obsessive about micronutrients to give your body the biggest boosts you can.
If you have to have marrow biopsies then anything that gets you fitter should help.

Yay! First FD under my belt and it was surprisingly easy. Wouldn't usually pick a Sunday but it just sort of happened so I kept going. Ate an apple at about 2.30pm then egg on toast and a natural yoghurt at about 8.00 pm. Plus about 5 cups of tea with milk. Will do Thursday next I think.
Love it

It's been an exhausting emotional week and I've had terrible nfds since Tuesday. I've probably put on a few lbs. I know a lot of it is because of late nights / crap sleep and when I'm tired I have no control.

New week tomorrow so aiming for an FD - whose with me? Getting to bed shortly

Welcome back, ((({ Olive })))
I recommend you aim for high nutrient, minimally processed food and prioritise a healthy lifestyle, to boost your immune system and strength.

Healthy plan:

• Masses of different veg - half your plate
• Olive oil on salads and roast veg - olive oil is a proven health boost
• Beans, lentils, peas - health boost
• Plain Greek yoghurt
• Some fruit
• Good quality protein and starchy carbs
• Lots of water - cut out fizzy junk
• Plenty of sleep - plan your days to prioritise this
• Pilates / yoga, with 2-3 training restdays per week where you just have a short walk outside if weather is dry

Well done on nailing your 1st FD, carfish
Now you know you can fast
Thursday is good, as it gives you a few NFDS between

Try to plan your days to ensure time for sleep, purple
It's important for health too, not just weight loss - your bod won't function properly on poor sleep.

Main tip: no screens for at least 1 hour before bed, e.g. no TV, phone, surfing, MN, games

Your body & mind need sleep even more when you have to cope with bereavement, because it's so draining.

Good morning everyone

Olive, what an awful time you’ve had of it. I hope you’re on the mend soon.

And a big well done to everyone else.

I’ve started the ball rolling today even though I’m still feeling panicky about it all but I guess that’s to be expected when staring yourself and your years of neglect in the face.

I’m really happy with my calorie allowance and it was such a relief today to wake up and not think about what can I have and what can I not have? The pressure used to be immense.

So, breakfast today was 2 slices of norlander toast with butter before I took my grandson to school. Then mid morning I had a small avacado, 45 gms of frea cheese, 5 cherry tomatoes.

It’s not that different from my usual way of eating because it’s what people eat here. And to be honest I can’t really say that I eat any processed meals. I do however have a very sweet tooth and I know if I can knock that on the head, as well as the snacking it entails, I really won’t be making much difference to my actual meals.

Is there anyone else out there who’s overweight but who eats really healthily and sabotages their healthy eating with something else. It’s like being a complete and utter contradiction in terms. Home made meals, plenty fruit and veg, mostly eating Mediterranean style - then eats enough sugary things so that it looks as if you live in takeaways and never have anything healthy pass your lips?

Morning ladies. Went awol over christmas but back and ready for 2018! No goals for january just habit setting. One fd last week which was easy. Have given up sugar and bread for january and have a new years resolution of doing exercise everyday.

FD here today anyone else?

Hello Bestbees 👋🏻!!! My first fast day of 2018 so I’m with you x. Just marking my spot it always helps give me an extra boost if I come on here before I start my day.
P.S good luck Olive x

Sorry, I forgot to say I haven’t weighed myself it taken measurements. I’m not really that bothered about it but I am bothered about the test results, liver function etc, that I had done 3 weeks ago at my first visit to the blood pressure and blood sugar clinic. I have to go back again at the end of feb so I’ll use that as my first weigh in and the repeat tests I have to have done a week before I go will be my yardstick for how well I’m doing.

After that though I’ll probably start weighing and measuring as advised.

Weigh in day today, after my 5.2 lb gain over Xmas I’ve lost 5.6lbs, I even triple checked it as I couldn’t believe the scales!

Fionne - I can definitely relate to your post, I have a very sweet tooth. Sweets are like crack to me and I used to sabotage my weight loss offen by binging. I’d have a good week do my 2 day fasts and eat anything and everything the moment I was alone. It was awful.

I haven’t done it in over 3 months now, it’s hard the temptation is still there. I’ve just changed my days around so it won’t happen. Without fail used to happen on a Saturday watching tv. Saturday now without fail is a FD for me and I no longer watch tv. I keep busy cleaning, I’ve downloaded books and games. Anything to keep me occupied.

If I go out for food I allow myself pudding but I find the more I eat the more I want so the less the better. For me the best advice I’ve had was BCF saying make your treat part of a meal, eat it straight after your food. That way you are full and less likely to want more.

A few years ago, I made Saturday one of my FDs for the same reason as you, duck - because of all the free time, it was my main day for a choc donut, choc cheesecake & choc cookie binge.

It took several months to lose the desire for excess, but it eventually happened and now, every couple of weeks, I can enjoy ONE portion of a really good restaurant or bakery treat pud and leave it at that.
That was always my aim: to be able to have a sensible portion and even then only occasionally

What worked for me is first cutting down to ONE portion every other day, then 2:5ing it, i.e. ONE portion on 2 days.
However, many folk, like you I think, have to go cold turkey for some months at least, maybe forever
And of course, someone with T2 might be wiser staying off completely too.

Bestbees
FD for me here too! Only gained 2kg on honeymoon but happy to be back and giving my stomach a rest!

Had coffee with almond milk so far, have a tiny salad with a few bits of chicken for a mini lunch and dinner will be a baked sweet potato with tuna and broccoli.

Good luck today everyone!