5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Fionne That's good you are giving up sugary treats - no matter how healthy the rest of your diet is, your body obviously can no longer cope with it.
The rest of your diet sounds healthy enough, but aim for no more than 2 slices of bread total per NFD, preferably rye bread or wholegrain

• wheat tends to be especially fattening for those with insulin issues.

I recommend you replace them with 1-2 portions fruit per NFD - with a meal - but no more (because of the sugar in fruit)
In your case, I recommend cutting out fruit on FDs

The idea of "no snacking" is to have at least 4 hours without calories between meals

Aim to eat 3 times per day - breakfast, lunch, dinner - no calories between.
This is what Mosely recommends for BSD, but you are doing it for ordinary 5:2
If only 3 meals is difficult for you atm, then add a small tea between lunch and dinner.

This reduces the number of occasions per day in which your insulin spikes and enables you to burn more fat, as well as giving your pancreas more downtime.

The charts show the difference it makes over a 2r-hr period when you snack (insulin-dominant) and when you don't (fasting-dominant) which is how we used to eat before Big Food invented snacking.

I recommend you combine your 2 small meals, morning toast and mid-morning avocado etc into ONE breakfast

24-hour period < smacks iPad>

Well done quacking! That's phenomenal weight loss.

Checking in today as first fast day of the week. Back to work so hoping keeping busy is going to help me get through this. Have a good day everybody - especially all the fasters.

Welcome back, MissL after your lovely honeymoon

Well done on your SV, duck
I told everyone not to get discouraged about holiday gain - it really does come off quickly if tackled immediately, because it is mostly not (yet) fat

Good luck to MissL, Bestbees and all the Monday fasters

Good luck today, slinky

Hi can I join you all?
Have read about 5:2 before but never put into practice, a few years ago I lost 4 stone over 8m with just healthier eating and Zumba/dance fitness, unfortunately a year later I lost my best mate very suddenly to cancer and the weight piled back on.
Now I’m 2 more babies down the line and my weight has crept up and up to the point I’ve weighed today and I’m 18.8 (and only 5ft2 ) which is pretty scary, I’ve never been this heavy even at the end of pregnancies!!

I desperately need to change as I am only in thirties and can’t even put socks on now without puffing and considerable effort, I’m so ashamed I’ve got to this point! My dads side of the family have diabetes too so that’s always in the back of my mind and I’d hate to be diabetic.

In the summer last year I tried working out/Zumba but didn’t change my diet all that much so didn’t see that much result, half a st so got discourage very quickly and gave up.

I’m really keen to try 5:2 but unsure if I should be doing ADF plus exercise to begin with as I have so much to lose?
I’m focusing on one stone at a time as 6+ sounds unacheievable when taken as a whole!

Any tips or guidance is appreciated!

Intended to do a FD today but breakfast cake in at 440cal so I think I’ll skip lunch and do a low carb dinner and think of today as a mini FD.

Anyone else find it much easier to do FD at work?

Came not cake

Morning all,

Haven’t caught up on the full thread yet but checking in!

First fast day after Christmas here. Managed well cutting out my carbs and sugar last week so feel ready for today. Easing myself in this week with 700 cal fasts rather than 500.

Starting weight from today- 12 stone 7 pounds.

Mother - am at the same stage as you. Put on a fair bit at Christmas so am on it as of today and back to the gym later.

Welcome Miracle - it’s so hard when you have a lot to lose. I started at 13 st 8 and am 5’3” so similar. You can do it- this thread is a fantastic support. I am finding this the only woe that I can sustain long term. I actually don’t dread it anymore! BCF will be on to give you tips at some point.

I need to start trying to check in every day as I’m losing track of the thread!

Making - I can’t advise on AFD but hopefully BCF will be along to advise you.

I just wanted to say welcome and good on you for taking the first step and that’s always the hardest. 5:2 is a fantastic way of life, not just the weight loss but all the health benefits that go alongside it and just all round really.

Instead of taking it a stone at a time Can I suggest 1/2 stone chunks as it’s more manageable? I found goals helped me so 7lb loss nails done, next 7 hair done etc never anything food wise but things that will make you feel good about yourself that will give you that encouragement boost perhaps? I wrote all my goals on a notepad and I found it helped me focus and something to aim towards.

Best of luck!

BCF - yeah you were definitely right, myself and DH both gained over Xmas but I said I’m sure I’d heard it comes off just as quick if you do something about it sooner than later.

Hey makingm, I've been lurking across the different threads for the past couple of weeks but just wanted to say hi as I'm in a similar boat to you! Yo-yo dieter for 14 years since I first tried losing weight (lost 35kg on VLCD) but huge shock when I was weighed at the GP just before Xmas to find I was my heaviest ever - 97kg!! I'm only 5'1 so my BMI was 42. To be in the "healthy" range I need to weigh 55kg - so that's 42kg to lose .

Anyway, the shock made me scramble around, downloaded MFP and first couple of days could see why...my eating habits past couple of years have been truly awful with sporadic attempts of weight loss.

So, I lowered my cal intake at first, to 1400 (this was over Xmas!, I have no patience!) then to 1200 and found myself easily doing a 16:8 pattern without trying. So yesterday I tried to do a 500cal FD and I did it. So will go for AFD or 4:3 as much as I can. But also on NFD I'm leaning towards a low-carb version (but cal tracked) as that's best for me - I have PCOS so really need to regulate blood sugar better.

It's a huge amount to lose and half the time I'm just worried i'll give up at some point. Trying to incorporate more moving, I really like walking, not so much the gym, perhaps when I'm honing my abs sometime in the future!

So far, I've lost 4kg in 3 weeks with my mishmash efforts, was down to 93kg this morning. Still can't believe I'm in the bloody 90s though.

2 slices of bread total per NFD, preferably rye bread or wholegrain
- wheat tends to be especially fattening for those with insulin issues

Norlander is Rye, its said to the the bread of Vikings which really appeals to me given I recently had a DNA test done to see if I had any Viking blood in me after a friend said for the umpteenth time - you look like those women on Vikings, surely you must be part Viking. Im not. Not even a bit

Fruit Im not a lover of except berries, watermelon, papaya and mango. Anything hard sets my teeth on edge. Veg I can eat till the cows come home.

Im only a few hours away from bedtime here and I still have about 1100 calories left to eat. I dont know how Im going to manage them now that a couple of snickers and a couple of glasses of wine is no longer an option. It really does make you think.

My son in law is really happy Ive decided to do this. Its a special interest of his as a GP and he's been trying to encourage me for about two years to give it a go.

Good morning makingmiracles
Welcome to the gang.
I have never done ADF - 5:2 done properly will be absolutely fine.
Starting from quite a high point if you are really strict with yourself, the weight will fall off surprisingly fast.
Combining 5:2 with 16:8 is (I find) the best
as then you get the gentle hunger pangs every day
while enjoying nice meals every day

questions
Using MFP to see exactly what you have eaten is a really good method as its then easy to identify the bits you no longer need

Hi all and Happy New Year to my favourite threaders.

I did a great three months of 5/2 at the end of 2017 but fell off the wagon at Christmas. Sort of mindfully. I knew it would happen and somewhat planned for it.

I am now BACK and determined to enjoy the lean feeling of the 5/2 again 2018.

Like Peachy, I am going to do 700 cal FDs this week and next and get my Monday/Wednesday fast routine in place again. Then I will come down to 500 cals by the last week in Jan.

So far today, only black tea so am going to try and keep that going until work finishes at 1700.

Good luck all - LOVE ❤️ 5/2!! It will love you back!!!!

Welcome, Miracles

I strongly recommend in your case that you start with 5:2, not ADF
5:2 will be more sustainable - which is key for weight loss -
and will train you how to eat longterm the amount of food you need - which avoids regain.

The OP Tips & Links section has a TDEE calculator to give you a rough idea of how many calories you need on NFDs
Most folk don't need mfp after an initial check, but if you have got used to eating a lot above TDEE, then mfp can be a good reality check and training wheels.

With a lot to lose, you should lose quickly enough with 2 FDs
If loss is slow the first 2 weeks, then the problem is your NFDs - because your TDEE should be quite high at 18 stone - so don't add on extra FDs

Exercise
Weight loss for most people is about 90% Diet, 10% Exercise
However, exercise is very important for health and if you exercise on 5:2, then it can help boost weight loss.

So, I recommend you start an exercise program which is sustainable for you, which you can enjoy
Have at least 2 days rest from training per week, so just a short walk outside on 2+ days and try different exercises on training days.

Everyone is welcome on our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 - the OP has lots of exercise info and calculators
If anyone would like me to suggest a tailored exercise plan, then post there with some info e.g. about your fitness level and whether you prefer to exercise at home / gym / park

Welcome, questions and well done on your SV

Be careful about mixing diets - some combinations are not sustainable and it is sustainability that is key to longterm weight management.

Yoyo dieting is typical of people rushing onto a crash diet, losing some weight, then returning to their old habits, then crash diet ...
You need to learn sustainable new habits - your current cycle of crash diet / "normal" eating keeps putting on weight and is unhealthy.

Be patient -Your weight gain was over years, so it will take many months to come off and stay off
You need to permanently retrain your '`normal"

Recommendations
Do 5:2, not ADF
Combine this with daily 16:8 or 14:10 if you find this sustainable, but build up gradually to this if you don't

Eat up to your TDEE at least 1 NFD per week

• this avoids your metabolism dialling down during the several months that your weight loss will take. It also reduces psychological stress.

If you really want to speed up loss, then calculate the TDEE of your initial goal weight, say at BMI 23
and then eat to goal TDEE on some, NOT all, NFDs each week.

Mother Tell your DH that his Christmas gain should soon go once he gets back on 5:2
Lots of posts here confirming that.
If he leaves it for several weeks, then those lb will stay - and they'll have invited several more friends to stay too.

Welcome back, handmini nice to see you again

fionne rye bread or crackers is an excellent choice

• I only buy rye or combinations of rye, quinoa, chia seeds, flax etc. Rarely wheat.

Cutting out junk & booze can be a real revelation that - despite weight gain - you actually haven't been giving your poor body enough nutrients for years.

If you aren't hungry, stop eating

• some folk with a lot to lose may find appetite drops as they use a lot of bodyfat for fuel. That's fine, as it means rapid fat loss

However, if after a couple of weeks, you are not hungry, but still way below TDEE every day,
then I suggest on one NFD per week you boost meals with healthy extras like olive oil, nuts, oily fish, avocado to get about TDEE that day.

Your son-in-law sounds lovely and supportive. Always a great help on 5:2 to have someone close like that.

Lots of newcomers - welcome!

FD done and dusted at around 500-600 cals. 1 x Weetobix for breakfast and scrambled egg with cheese and toast (I know I know) for dinner.

Need to drink lots of water now and hopefully an early night!

Hello & happy New Years to everyone. I'm back on the wagon after a month off. Not particularly looking forward to the weigh in later this week. Was sorta sensible but there was some feasting.

Today's meal was a 2 egg omelette and a salad of chickpeas, feta, beetroot, carrots and capers. Was delicious but I'm still hungry so it's going to require much mint tea and an early night.

Currently in size 12 clothing with some 10s. Want to focus on getting down to a proper 10 over the next weeks and months

BCF, I just reread your last post to me and it makes perfect sense. Thank you.

More Diet Coke chat:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/key-long-life-drinking-diet-coke-tab-104-year-old-woman-theresa-rowley-michigan-new-years-day-a8143236.html?utmcampaign=Echobox&utmmmedium=Social&utmsource=Facebook

Don’t think so somehow!!!

Oh crumbs. She’d probably have lived until 125 if she’d knocked coke on the head and fasted two days a week!

FD finished here at 500 instead of the predicted 700. Turns out I don’t need easing back in after all! 70 cals milk, two egg omelette with a little cheese and a big salad.

Did a HIIT class today. Was really fun but deadly.

Off to catch up on the last few days of this thread!

Kitchen closed at 511 calories for the day. May have a herbal tea before bed.

Managed to fit in quite a bit in that amount. Morrisons vine tomato and lentil soup with added extra chilli for lunch, a couple of cups of tea and coffee with 2 cheese crackers (at 20 calories each) and for dinner mushroom stroganoff (recipe from another fasting forum) with oven baked carrots and broccoli. Measured out and tracked to 511 in total.

Busy thread today. Love hearing how everyones day went and to see people like me hitching a ride back on the wagon.

Easy fast here with nothing until a tea of kale, courgetti and a delicious sauce of roasted cauli, onions and peppers whizzed with tinned toms and a few cashews. Followed with a run and now sone yoga.

I know next fd on wed will be harder with less in the bank!