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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
NazaninN · 04/01/2018 22:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BerylStreep · 04/01/2018 22:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 23:03

...

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 23:39

Two teas sounds fine, mighty
No need to give up all added sugar, just moderate, exactly as you are aiming

Tea is usually a decent choice.
There is far far less sugar in tea than in fizzy drinks
also tea itself is healthy, whereas fizz is nutritionally junk

Purple As I posted, all Coke /Pepsi are bad choices if taken longterm and in quantity.
The worst fizzy shit for longterm health
They are packed with added sweetness to drown out the other chemical crap, because the taste with less would be vomit-making.
I recommend breaking that habit - maybe cut down now to one every other day, then go to one per week, then one per month.

Between sweeteners and sugar, personally I'd avoid sugar
1st choice - stevia
2nd choice - Sucralose, i.e. Splenda

Sounds like you enjoy lemonade ?
Go for one with stevia or Sucralose (Splenda), no sugar
e.g. ^Sprite Zero has Sucralose. It has no caffeine and less junk than Coke

If you must have coke occasionally, then Coke Zero has Sucralose and see if you can find caffeine-free Zero, because the combination of caffeine and sweetener worsens the effects
The Coke Life has both stevia & sugar, but too many cals

duck As for purple I suggest you change your fizz to lemonade
Or - on NFDs - allow a few cals and have a small glass of wine / apple juice with fizzy water

A pint of cider has 210 cals (like a donut) whereas 1 pt lager has about 180 (slice of pizza)
BUT both drinks, like beer, are notorious for piling on stomach fat, because of the amount / type of carbs.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2018 23:45

Plain fizzy water (no flavourings) with ice and a slice of fruit is by far the best fizzy choice
It is the least processed, no added chemical crap
Hence, it's my clear recommendation.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 00:05

Well done, granny sounds a trying day

oddsocks Do you drink enough water ? Other drinks are often not as hydrating, especially fizzy crap
Start each day, FD or NFD, with a glass and keep drinking
Plain water is the best drink and also helps efficient fat-burning

FD tips

  • Glug a teasp Marmite (it's only 10 cals) to avoid headaches, dizziness, weakness etc
    It replenishes salt and other minerals that may be low when you body has not adapted to fasting
    Also boosts B vits

  • Avoid breakfast cereal, fruit juice, dried fruit, or fruit on its own without protein
    You might do better to leave fruit for NFDs

  • Try 2 meals, lunch & supper

  • Hot beef Bovril (10 cals per cube) is a good starter for a meal, or just as a tasty hot drink to keep you on track when hungry.

MiniFD
If you are really anxious, you could ease in with a miniFD of say 800-900 cals, especially if you have a lot to lose (probably higher TDEE)
That allows 3 small meals
Include protein and lots of veg with each meal, but leave fruit for NFDs

After a couple of weeks, see how your weight loss is going - if it's ok, keep to that
If not, check your NFDs first, but also see if you can move to 700 cals, then 600 cals.

OP posts:
Oddsocks15 · 05/01/2018 07:54

Thanks BigChoc - I think will do a mini FD as you suggest to start, I am particularly anxious about it and I do have a lot to lose with a high TDEE (2154) with a BMI at a whopping 37.2 Blush Shock

purpleviolet1 · 05/01/2018 08:04

Thanks BCF

Quacking great work 👍!

Oddsocks good luck for your mini FD.

sadly my grandad has passed away so I'm just trying to be 'aware' of what I'm eating. Will get back on the bus in a few days

quackingduck222 · 05/01/2018 08:12

What’s with the deleted threads. Very strange!

It’s really not often I drink, throughout last year I think I drank on 8 occasions. Bar two would of been 1 drink max. I like white wine and lemonade but very rarely drink it so that could be a better option instead.

Granny- yes I’m doing low carb and 800 cals atm. Plan was to try it for a week and see how it goes. I usually take a lower carb approach and have for months now. I don’t usually have potatoes rice pasta or bread but have lentils and beans and pulses instead.
I wasn’t too upset by my Xmas gain of 5lbs as I know it could of been worse but the fact it’s pushed me back 2 months is frustrating.

Is anyone fasting today?

HLBug · 05/01/2018 08:15

Sorry for your loss purple - take care of yourself Flowers

HLBug · 05/01/2018 08:17

quacking removed posts from a new poster who only joined yesterday and posted on every weight loss thread about a new plan we’re all encouraged to join Hmm I’m sure MNHQ will get to the bottom of it.

purpleviolet1 · 05/01/2018 08:30

Thanks. I lost my other grandad just 4 months ago (in case it sounds as familiar)

GrannyPenny · 05/01/2018 08:34

Sorry to hear about your grandad Purple, condolences to you and your family. Take care of yourself.

Quacking - I think Naz was spamming a few boards promoting a dodgy site. Not sure about the other deletions though! Sounds like the LC800 is suiting you well at the moment and not affecting your ability to exercise.

Goals for today. No snacking. Eat (and drink) sensibly as it's Friday wine night.

quackingduck222 · 05/01/2018 08:34

Sorry to hear that purple, make sure you look after yourself Flowers

Oh god Bug, what’s up with these people

HLBug · 05/01/2018 08:35

Me again. I’ve just weighed in and I’m another 2lbs down at 10st 2lbs! Original goal was 10st 3lbs when I started this WOL in July so boooooom - smashed it Grin

Not ready for maintenance yet though - I still have an elusive pair of black skinny Levi’s to fit into. New goal weight 9st 7lbs. I’ve never seen a 9st on the scales in my adult life. Let’s see if this busty short arse can do it!

BerylStreep · 05/01/2018 09:03

Mine was deleted because I had posted that I had reported the first post as spam.

The poster had done about 60 threads at my last count.

Now it looks like I am a really goody poster because all of my anti-spam messages were also hidden!

#IReallyAmTheThreadPolice Grin

quackingduck222 · 05/01/2018 09:23

Well done Bug that’s absolutely amazing.

purpleviolet1 · 05/01/2018 09:26

HLBug that's amazing!!!!

I've decided to have a mini FD today as I'm not in the mood for eating anyway. I've had 1 weetobix for breakfast and I'll skip lunch and have dinner (chicken spinach curry). Wont calorie count it but eat mindfully

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 11:57

Condolences to you and your family, purple Thanks

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 12:03

Congratulations on sashing though goal, bug Star
Onward to the first ever 9 stone somethings !
Quite often folk have found when they reach their original goal that they can go further
So long as you are feeling so good, why not

Good luck on your 1st miniFd, oddsocks
Several folk have started at BMI > 40 and lost quite a few stone
As you see, this WOE works:
you need patience & persistence and just do your best - don't worry if a day doesn't go to plan, because this WOE is flexible & forgiving

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 12:06

Beryl is our spam guard Wink`to defend us against thread invaders

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 05/01/2018 12:51

It is very interesting how things change.

When I fist joined these 5:2 thread in early September 2012 there were no books, no articles, no nothing, just the single TV programme.

When MM wrote his very first book, the publisher contacted several of us on this thread and asked us to provide quotes / comments about why 5:2 was great.
Mine is in there, as is Laskas as is catsrus as is anglaise (and all of us still do 5:2 several years on.

I started the NO SNACKING back in 2012
in fact I used to use it to close of threads when they were full.

I was always anti fizzy drinks
but Bigchoc tracked down the evidence

So now at long last, mainstream advice is following the evidence and agreeing with what we have been saying all along
HaloGrinHaloGrin

purpleviolet1 · 05/01/2018 13:46

That's wonderful talking! I need to get the book out and read it Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 13:55

Mosely also has a book "The Clever Guts Diet" which goes into how different foods affect your gut, health & weight
He talks about fasting and different types of food

He is pretty focused on low carb - his Mediterranean low carb version - but imo that's because he had T2 when he started 5:2
Most people who are not T2 / pre-T2 / significantly insulin-resistant can enjoy at least the non-junky starchy carbs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2018 13:58

If anyone wants to buy his 5:2 book, make sure you get the updated and revised version, because that was written after a lot of experience and feedback from applying 5:2 in rl

IF (intermittent Fasting) is an exciting field of science which is growing rapidly

OP posts: