5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome, sleeping
Not much longer (if you're in the Uk) and then you'll have nailed your 1st FD.

tip:

• As soon as you finish supper, have a glass of water and clean your teeth - it helps stop late nibbling
• Then have an early night, to boost overnight fasting benefits Also, you may need more sleep until you are adapted to fasting, just as you would after starting exercise

mother Don't try to change everything at once
I suggest you allow yourself that one daily glass of lemonade with supper - it's better than cola, at least.

Ooooh, loving tom kerridges new show-lots of recipes to try!

Watched Tom Kerridge weight loss to program now watching Trust Me I'm a Doctor with Dr Michael Moseley, all about fizzy drinks....

Crikey. I advise cutting back on fizzy drinks. Now the Beeb and Mosely are following ?

Can I join?
I read through all the inspirational stories on the success stories thread and you are all so inspiring. I did my first FD on tues and have about 10-15kg to lose. I’m struggling with trying to stop snacking on my NFD.

Here's the lasagne

Welcome munkie and congratulations on completing your first FD!

I’m thinking about a FD today but I’ve woken up a bit lightheaded after being awake in the night with the baby. Hopefully some water will sort me out. Said baby is having her first settling session at Nursery today...so maybe a FD will be useful to make sure I don’t comfort eat all the cake, eek. Anyone else fasting today?

I think Mosley and the BBC have been checking out BCFs advice. You’ve been saying that about fizzy drinks for as long as I’ve been on here

Well done on your run Granny.

Well done on your FDs mother & sleeping.

Mighty - snacking is a very hard habit to break. BCFs advice of turning it into a pudding is great and I’ve found it fills you up and your less likely to want it. I struggle with picking in the evening and use to take a snack upto bed. I found that very hard to break.

Good luck to everyone on there FD.

Welcome, Munkie
Well done on your 1st FD and for working to cut out snacks

Stay strong, mother
Maybe you need to change NFD breakfast e.g. boost protein, reduce starches, maybe add some fat

What to avoid (high GI): breakfast cereal, fruit juice, dried fruit, toast on its own or nearly so
Eggs are a good start.
Or porridge - not the flavoured instant crap - with cinammon and flaked almonds
Or rye / pumpkin / wholegrain toast with pnut butter (no added sugar or palm oil)

I usually don't have breakfast, which works for me personally

Why we shouldn't snack

Even "healthy" ones like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - snack food, lattes, alcohol, even fruit - as part of a meal.
If you add protein, a snack can even be a mini-meal:
Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 4 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, entirely to increase profits
Snacks are only ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - which very few are in the West

This has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution - almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant, see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

If a significant chunk of your calories are in snacks, you may need to increase meal size to avoid hunger.
BUT
it is normal and natural to feel hungry in the hour or so before a meal - that is how it was throughout most of human history until about 1980

It's very interesting about fizzy drinks - I knew about the sugary ones, and the ones with artificial sweeteners, but very surprised that even carbonated water may impact.

Munkie and Mother - the no snacking rule is the hardest IMO. I realised once I MFPd my calories that the majority of them came from snacks - high carb sugar/salty unmentionable ones cos I'm aiming for a FD today and don't want to dwell. At the moment I'm taking my 'no snacking' one day at a time so it doesn't seem so overwhelming, and posting my daily goals.

Goals for today. No snacking. FD planned.

In addition to the issue of insulin and sweet fizzy drinks, they also usually contain nasties like sodium benzoate
and over the years can lead to higher BP and kidney damage

After examining the latest research, I gave up all fizzy drinks last May - which for a Red Bull Zero addict was surprisingly easy.

However, most folk can take it one step at a time (especially if you're not in your 60s like me !)
Work on cutting back to ni more than one 330ml drink per day, if possible not coke

Can I ask why Coke is seen as much nastier than other fizzy drinks? I'm partial to a can of Diet Coke with dinner most evenings, and it doesn't seem to make me any hungrier an hour later.

Coke / Pepsi is worse other fizzy drinks because

1. It contains more Phosphoric Acid, which:

• Attacks teeth enamel
• Combines with essential bone minerals which are then excreted, lowering bone density over time
• Can lead to kidney stones, kidney disease, high BP

2. Combines caffeine with artificial sweeteners releases Excitotoxins which overstimulate the neuroreceptors in your brain, over the longterm possibly causing damage It can be highly addictive - it was designed specifically to be.

BUT for all fizz with sweeteners:
3) All artificial sweeteners can spike insulin, produced by "incretins" (gut hormones) which lead to fat storage

4. All artificial sweeteners - except stevia - change the gut flora over time to a different balance which tends to increase fat storage

5. Almost all fizzy drinks contain sodium benzoate, which kidney specialists now think can harm kidneys

6. The sheer amount of sweetness in fizzy drinks, especially cola, means you consume far far more than say in tea or coffee

Decent layperson"s overview here, rather simplified but with scientific references:

https://therenegadepharmacist.com/diet-coke-exposed-happens-one-hour-drinking-diet-coke-coke-zero-similar-diet-soda/

"As diet coke has no calories and no recognised ingredients we know it is a cocktail of chemicals that encourage your body to gain and store weight^^
especially on your legs and bottom away from your organs. diet drinks are not good for your body your health or even as it turns out for dieting.’^"

As I posted, I reviewed all the published evidence and medical opinions, then gave up all fizz last May. Forever.^

If you must drink sweet fizz, then look for the very few brands sweetened with stevia.
This may in some folk still increase insulin, but avoids most of the other damaging effects
Mosely also recommends stevia if you need sweetness.

btw, honey and agave syrup are basically just sugar, so no real advantage there over sugar - which we know increases fat storage around the midsection and increases the risk of T2

imo, The false scares about cancer & sweeteners - the old dodgy animal tests with the equivalent of 40+ cans per day - distracted medical scientists for a long time from discovering the real dangers for humans

I took BCFs advice a while ago now in ditching the Pepsi max and I’ve gone from a pint each night to maybe 1 can per week sometimes none at all.

If I go for a meal for example I always choose a Diet Coke over alcohol my tipple is either a pint of lager or cider I assumed the soft drink was a better option. Is my logic right with the new study?

Day 4 on 800 cals and feel absolutely fantastic today, headache has disappeared managed another run today that’s 4 days in a row and I did 5k on the bike. My fitness tracker is very happy with me as I haven’t completed my daily goals since September.

DH has never been happy when I’ve attempted low carb & low cal in the past but he was amazed at the size of my tea. I’m MFPing everything and using scales. Still find it a eye opener as I cut a slice of cheese I thought was 25g turns out it was 50g so half went back for tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy
Are you really Moseley?! Have you watched Trust Me about fizzy drinks yet?

Ps - I am scared about impending fast day at the weekend, haven’t pinned down (although I know I need to), which day I’m going to do FD. I am mostly worried about feeling dizzy/faint as I have done on pre-diet normal days when I hadn’t eaten for a while. Especially seemed to happen when I’m out in large shops eg clothes shopping, whether I’ve got too hot or been walking around too much, not sure. All blppd pressure tests have been fine

Wow BCF that is really rather shocking. Thanks for posting that info. I actually went off fizzy drinks when pregnant - couldn't stand the taste, sensation or resulting heart burn. Really wish I'd just kept away! Will definitely try and curb my intake.

These threads have such a wealth of information.

I’m so used to ending my meals with Something sweet after, need to de-condition myself. I’m planning to do my FD at work, or after a night shift, which is normally where my snacking is at its finest.

Luckily I’m not a fizzy drink person, my weakness is a two sugar milky tea. Working on cutting down the number of these particularly at work where it’s endless to 2 teas a day.

Very interesting BCF. I always find myself reaching for fizzy when tired so that's another reason why early nights on the FDs at least are very welcome

Can I ask what's better between coke and Diet Coke? I've always drank coke and quite a lot of it I do like sprite /7 up and tango. I noticed tango has I think nearly a third of the calories which coke has..

FD done but tougher than I thought it would be. OH cooked a smoked ham afternoon/evening and the smell was horrible, made me feel quite sick and pervaded through the house. Brought the teenage visitor out of her room though - she thought it was feeding time!

Oddsocks I was apprehensive about my FD today too. I used to eat all my calories in the evening on previous FDs, but today I split it. Hunger pangs set in big time with the cooking ham smell but settled down nicely once they'd finished eating. I'll probably be up weeing all night though given the amount of tea I've drunk!

Quacking - how many days are you doing 800 cals a day for - are you also doing low carb too? Well done on your run and 5k bike ride.