5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

However, no books at all are needed to do 5:2 - we've all the knowledge on these threads
Also no shakes, special foods etc
No extra expense at all - in fact the FDs may save a bit of money

Hear Hear.
These threads were the source of expertise that was used to write a lot of the early books.
It was VERY obvious.
We put the data set together that MM has been refining and making money from ever since.

He of course did not design it to lose weight - he was never actually overweight.
He designed it to bust his lethal levels of visceral fat - which it does even better for us middle aged ladies !

Wow that’s mind blowing about using these threads for the books.

I do own it but haven’t read it all yet. I must!

Definitely agree re saving money on fast days, it’s so cheap and easy it’s great. Although we probably do spend more money on better cuts of meat / nice fish and more nutritious meals. But it’s worth it as we used to eat processed junk but we eat a lot less than before so it definitely balances out.

I’m going to did my kindle out and read some of the book today.

TBH I do not recollect it bothering any of us at the time - the threads are still on this board (which also did not exist back then) somewhere.

MMs researcher was very open about it and we were / are very evangelical about it
they wanted data / experience / ideas : we were it

Bigchoc and I never change our names, so can be tracked but I know that many of the others are still around (and several are now on my FB) - finding a WOE that worked for older ladies was so, so cool after all

That’s really great, and lovely to hear the posters that have been hear from the start are still maintaining. I looked at the 5:2 success story thread and it was amazing to see how well everyone did but also everyone coming back to update to say there attitude to food has changed, they are more relaxed about food and maintaining.

You see success stories on all diets (I am on many different diet threads on FB) but the amount of people saying I lost 3/4/5 stone and have put it all back on plus more but it will be different this time. I am one of them, it never happens with all the will in the world without making life long changes you revert back to old ways.

The success stories for 5:2 are incredible yours included talkin absolutely amazing not just the short term but long term. I’ve never come across that in the past as it seems all the other diets out there are designed to make you fail and keep coming back to make you spend more money.

Ooh. That is interesting tip 5/2 has stood the test of time. I shall have something to say to the guy in the office who dismissed 5/2 as a fad. Fizzy drinks wise I used to be a diet coke fiend, but only have it x2 a month maybe & can take or leave it. So feel it's not my worst vice. That might be snacking. I've massively reduced it but have a way to go. Solidarity to the other snackers in the process of reform.

Thanks for the couch to 5k encouragement granny I haven't started yet. It's really cold outside! Soon!

Well done on the sv bug must feel amazing.

Good luck to those who are starting or have just done their first fd's - first couple are the hardest I think then you get into the swing.

Also condolences purple hope you're as ok as can be.

Just another you stick it to the guy in the office!

I’m reading the book, found a paragraph saying tell people your fasting and they will likely join you. Unfortunately I’ve found the complete opposite and comments like “starving yourself today are you” really unhelpful.

Another good day here, my tea was delicious find that I’m hardly hungry at all. My legs don’t hurt like hell for the first time this week. Mixed up my run today and did some HIT towards the end as I’m getting so bored and that’s not good seeing as I’m only 6 Miles into my 25 mile challenge. It actually pushed my heart rate up quite a bit more than usual.

quacking
The thing about persuading people that fasting will work for them is that they have to feel envious and worried at the same time.
I focus on diabetes / alzheimers risk reduction
and the fact that I find BMI

Longterm weight management - why Fasting is different

Millennia of evolution and natural selection with limited / unreliable food supply mean that your body has many mechanisms

• to preserve its fat stores - why it's often quicker to lose than to gain -
• and to return to a previously higher weight - hence the tendency to regain after diets

Standard weight loss diets:

do basically the same thing day after day.
This subjects the body to prolonged constant loading, which is predictable

• and after a few months the body can adapt by dialling down metabolism, to try to return to an earlier weight.

This means you have to keep eating less and less, just to stay the same.

Intermittent fasting:

• works on the same principle of "hormesis"as HIIT does - repeated intervals of high / low loading boosts performance and resilience.
  IF (Intermittent Fasting) is like HIIT for your diet.

• Actually boosts metabolism, so you can eat slightly more.
  Fasting increases growth hormone sufficiently to maintain muscles and bones despite reduced food

• Fasting is a proven method of reducing insulin resistance, which is a major cause of weight gain and n of regain after other diets.
  Insulin resistance requires both high levels of insulin and for these to persist for a long time.
  Fasting does this by targeting the visceral (organ) fa hat causes his

• What is not widely known is that reducing insulin resistance also reduces the body's set point for weight.
  Hence fasting increases your body's set point and helps avoids regain.

• On IF / 5:2, you can eat "normal'` food during NFDs, within sensible limits - too much booze, junk food or just too many calories over TDEE can defeat even IF

Maintenance is life-long

Your old WOL doesn't work. It put on the fat.

If you return to your old WOL, you'll return to your old weight & waist - and to any health conditions that IF had helped

Fast regularly to retain insulin sensitivity and lower set point.
This can be e.g. daily 16:8 / 14:10 or weekly 5:2 / 6:1

Our fasting WOL allows feasting and holidays, but they must be in balance.
Feasting should followed immediately by IF, until the weight gain is gone.

Yes, I had someone have a go at me about "starving" myself on a FD - I said curtly if you want to look at what starvation is then take a look at those who truly are starving in Yemen and other parts of the world.

Anyway, checking in. I did okay today. Not sure exactly what calories were but choices were healthy. Another NSV today (no snack victory) - sat next to teenager visitor this evening who ate a whole (large) pack of kettle chips without feeling I was missing out. I did have wine but only with my main meal and no dessert as I wasn't hungry.

Found this morning's exercise class hard though. Had half a banana an hour beforehand - I think psychologically I needed to feel I had eaten something following a difficult FD. I didn't sleep that well which didn't help. Very slow 2 mile jog this evening with DD - her first run since coming off the cold/cough which has been doing the rounds.

Just - it is cold outside, but we wore long leggings over capris leggings, long top with short top over and wind proof running jackets. DD wore a hat and had gloves with her - we are always well layered up this time of year so if we need to walk we won't get cold.

Looking forward to a lie in in the morning before 10.30 gym class.

Good morning, Can I join in please? Im a longterm poster but Ive name changed because I fancied being a new start for this thread.

Im 60 and my weight has at last caught up with me and Im now pre-diabetic, I also have high blood pressure. Its all been quite a shock though god knows why. Ive been seriously considering weight loss surgery but my Dr son in law has suggested I give the 5:2 a go. He knows Im mentally very tired and my will power is zero but he says apart from 5:2 being a really good way to live he thinks I could manage 2 days a week of fasting. He's actually been trying to get me to consider it for about 2 years now.

Ive been reading up on things and Ive found out there's a 12 week online version of the 5:2 starting next week and I was wondering if anyone has done it? Or if its even needed? Or is this thread and the support on it be enough for people?

I have about 45 kilos to lose.

Ive been reading up on things and Ive found out there's a 12 week online version of the 5:2 starting next week and I was wondering if anyone has done it? Or if its even needed? Or is this thread and the support on it be enough for people?

Having finished reading the thread I feel bloody silly asking that ^ especially after reading yesterdays posts from BCF.

Hi Fionne I too am a long time lurker/poster with several name changes. I have done this twice then stopped and am
Restarting it again. Not sure about what the 12week programme is - perhaps you could post a link. This board is amazing though and you gets lots of encouragement and support so I would definitely try this at least.

I am sure other regular posters will come along. Just wanted to say welcome and well done on making this positive first step.

Well done on your jog granny.

Welcome Fionne. No need to sign upto anything. You don't need pills, skakes, meetings or to spend money to join 5:2. Its free and flexible.

Would recommend you watch the original horizon documentary that BCF has linked on the first post. It's very interesting and made me feel proud to be doing this way of life. It's not all about the weight loss but the health benefits too and the reduction of risks to cancer, diment, altzimers, arthritis.

I accidentally found 5:2 a few days after a friend was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She was fit healthy and not even 40. It's been in my mind for a long time as we have a lot of cancer and dementia on both sides of the Family. When I looked at the research I thought how can I not do this way of eating.

The book is very good the 5:2 by Michael Mosley and mimi spencer the revised edition. I finished it last night. It's a easy read and inspiring but I didn't find anything new I hadn't read with the wealth of knowledge on here.

I'm going to add a paragraph I found in the book that I thought was very good and made perfect sense. When your on normal diets it consumes all your thoughts but fasting doesn't.

Good luck

Welcome, Fionne
Yup, 5:2 does not involve any special courses, shakes, potions etc
(unless you really like handing over money to business profits)
The OP has a lot of info, if you want to delve deeper.

I'm 61 and one of several 5:2ers who used to have no problem with weight management, then found that menopause buggered up all that, changed where & how much bodyfat was added, changed shape.
Intermittent fasting is the most effective method I know for post-meno women to lose weight

In my case, I originally came to 5:2 after researching how to lower the risk of common diseases / conditions Alzheimer's, Parkinson's etc
Mosely was trying to reverse his T2 and BP
Several others on these threads were trying to reverse conditions they had, or avoid those of other family members
Weight loss was almost a happy side effect for us.

The end of the OP has a "Scientific evidence for Fasting" section, which references several peer-reviewed science papers
Fasting has been proven to reverse T2 / preT2 and lower BP

Progress for a post-meno woman - notoriously the most difficult group on any weight loss WOL - will probably be slower.
I advise you also to measure waist at the narrowest point (usually about 2" above the navel) and also hips before you start

Be patient and you can get to goal. And stay there
Obviously, some folk need also to address a diet that has too much junk or booze, or just a huge amount of calories.

Sorry I've added the pages in the wrong order so read page 2 first

The only real advantage of a paid course is to discourage giving up, because you don't want to waste all your money.

If that's you:
Put whatever you would have paid into a jar or a bank account.
If you reach goal, spend it on new outfits for your new bod
If you give up, then donate it all to a food bank instead

Fasting day for me. I really don't post much but have been reading these threads since a few months after the original doc aired.

Did 4:3 successfully over the summer but after some time abroad and family issues that impacted my health I stopped. Have restarted last week and this time want to try to do ADF. If I won't be able to I will scale back to a 4:3. 4:3 has been much more effective for me as I have a very low TDEE and have struggled to stay within this. Perimenopause is definitely playing havoc with my body and my metabolism.

So am back to basics. Will incorporate exercise into this once ready and also try to stick to TDEE on eating days (especially once all Christmas goodies finally finished).

Just wanted to say hi. I am simultaneously re-reading all the old threads - on thread 11. They are so inspirational. It is so nice to see some of the newbies there that go on to become legends of 5:2 on the inspiration thread.

Will make more of an effort to post regularly even briefly as a way to make sure I really stick with this.

Welcome Fionne you'll be happy here!

Measure up today and start increasing water intake

Welcome, slinky
I'm glad you've delurked to share

With very low TDEE and meno, it takes patience, persistence and accepting this will be a slow process over probably several months,
but you can do this.
Posting here often helps

Very low TDEE is one case where 4:3 or ADF can boost loss (it often doesn't for those on higher TDEE who don't tackle NFDs)

NFDs
Do check how many, if any, NFD calories & sugar grams go on alcohol and junk food, especially sugary - these can really hinder fat loss for anyone, especially around the mid-section.

Obviously go for masses of different veg - but no more than 2 portions fruit daily - and adequate but not excess protein.
Avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals and keep starchy carb portions moderate, wholegrain
Easy guide to portion size in the photo

FDs
Have you also tried FDs on TDEE/4, instead of the 500 cals that works for those with average TDEE ?
FDs might be better without fruit - save for NFDs

Once you reach goal, I recommend 5:2 for longterm maintenance, as you can then eat back the deficit on NFDs

I'm on an FD too.
Anyone else joining us ?
With spin class and sauna this afternoon, I have a small lunch and then a small supper after gym
I can do fasted training in the mornings, but with afternoon or evening classes I prefer some food earlier

Thanks Big Choc for the welcome and advice.

Generally I am quite good on eating days but it doesn't take a lot to go over TDEE. I allow myself treats at times as if I am too strict I feel I won't stick with this. Ofcourse as I go along with this I automatically do find I make healthier choices. But I will pay attention more to the food groups you mentioned.

Doing TDEE/4 is really tough and I think I have only managed it once or twice. It would be around 375 calories or so I think. So I prefer doing 4:3. This whole WOL is about mental motivation for me. And like all I have good days and some bad days but have done this enough to know it gets easier and know my body pretty well in terms of weight fluctuations etc. DH continues to do this with me but he only needs 5:2. He is so tall that TDEE is very high and at times he struggles to eat enough. But he has his own challenges and is working to overcome them.

Thanks for the support and I will continue to post. This group is amazing!

I’ve just started this week and found this thread. Thank you very much for adding all the really useful information, ideas, links and resources.

I’m aiming to lose 30lb in 20 weeks initially-which would get me back to pre baby no 2 weight! I’ll tackle baby no 1 weight once I’m there!

I’ve completed one FD so far and wasn’t too bad. I’m also using MFP to track my calories and finding it very informative (not really embarked on a proper diet in my life before).

If I don’t consistently consume my full NFD calories (shaving another couple of hundred calories off) is this likely to help or hinder my progress?

Hello to all the newbies, i’ve only just started with this WOE.

My first FD today, intended in a mini FD and start slowly, however ive been cleaning the house and totally forgot about breakfast! That is a first for me, breakfast has always been a bowl of cereal forever! Just had some lunch (leftover tuna ratatouille).. was worried I would feel dizzy or faint but I’m okay 👌

Welcome, wristy and well done on your 1st FD

wrt eating up to TDEE on NFDs:
The key is sustainability, so if eating under TDEE makes you feel too hungry, you risk bingeing or even giving up.
If you are hungry on an NFDs, then eat up to TDEE

Most useful tip: eat meals, no snacking between

Every day: If you are not hungry, then stop eating.

Suggestion:
If you have a lot to lose, then the TDEE of your goal weight may be quite a bit lower - so it is a good idea to gradually get used to that
Try eating to your goal TDEE on some NFDs
If there is more than say 300 cals difference in current to goal TDEE, then have at least one NFD per week at full TDEE, to boost metabolism