5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Peachy I felt the same as you a few days ago. Before Xmas I planned my FDs and was adamant I was going to do them but it didn’t happen and it’s resulted in a 5.2lb gain.

But a couple of good FDs and it will be off, your dropping the sugar and no doubt will really show on the scales again really soon.

Head high and push on. You can and will do it!

I’ve had a wobbler today, came over all shaky but know it’s from the sugar withdrawal always happens on day 2 but hoping to push through early night and should be fine by tomorrow. I managed a 1 mile run, wasn’t feeling it today but I did it so I’m chuffed.

peachy lass keep on keeping on (as my DM used to say). I keep dreading FDs at the moment, but I feel so much better afterwards. Routine is my friend and I’m truly out of it at the moment. If you’re feeling a bit poorly then maybe that’s causing you to be a down? New Year can also sometimes make me feel quite melancholy - a whole year stretching ahead can be quite daunting.

Well done on your run quacking - it’s a show of your determination that you went out at all. I’ve done 2.8k steps all day today - so a mile run is significantly better than what I’ve achieved today!

FD finished for me here - probably around 550kcals. Had a small bowl of DH’s homemade sweet potato and chorizo soup for lunch, then a low cal ready meal from Sainsbury’s for dinner. So many new variations at this time of year...I wonder why!!

I found a low carb recipe for cottage pie using purée cauliflower and cheese as the topping instead of mashed potato. I used 5% fat mince and added courgette, carrot and tomatoes to it.

Nom nom 😋

Sounds delic, oddsocks
Can you post it on the 5:2 FD Recipe Thread

peachy You've done this before, so you know it works.
You just need to get back into a routine - much easier now the feasting season is over.

After reaching goal

• Weigh at least weekly and return to 5:2 immediately if you put on 5lb above Happy Weight
• Keep up good 5:2 habits like no snacking, moderate alcohol, lots of water, daily walk
• Have a defined maintenance plan, e.g. 6:1, 16:8 - not just wishful thinking Your old WOE is what piled on the lb

if you return to your old WOE, then you return to your old weight & waist - which increases with the years

If you tend to regain - on any WOE

• Once you achieve goal weight, I recommend maintaining with 6:1 or even for those with low TDEE - 5:2 with 800 cal FDs

• it gives a clear calorie deficit, to help balance NFDs - you probably keep regaining because your "normal eating'` is above TDEE
• and if you gain a few lb, you don't have the psychological barrier of getting down to fasting again

BigChocFrenzy have posted it on the receipe thread, but here is the link (I didn’t use cream as i don’t like it)

www.ditchthecarbs.com/low-carb-shepherds-pie-cauliflower-mash/

Thanks, oddsocks
Anyone looking for FD ideas: 5:2 FD Recipe Thread

We have a recipe thread. Cool will have a look at that.

BCF you’ve actually just answered one of my questions. I’ve been very surprised how much more manageable 800 cals is (not long term tho I’m not doing that again)
I wondered if doing 800 cals x 2 per week would work for maintenance. So that’s great. My TDEE is 1450.

Would having 2 800 calorie fasts be more beneficial than 1 500 calorie fasts?

As I said earlier since starting 5:2 I’ve not been unwell at all, prior to 5:2 I was always coming down with colds that were doing the rounds at school. I just don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Not that I’m close to maintenance as I’ve checked my weight log and my Xmas gain has put me back to where I was over 2 months ago.

Also I was wondering who Jason Fung is? I recognize the name but saw quite a interesting article regarding cellular cleansing during fasting. He says that the cells in the body repair themselves and it’s basically unique to fasting and can’t be achieved with any of form of calorie controlled diet.

Well done on your run Quacking. I am scheduled for another tomorrow but will be giving it a miss unless the storm blows over by 5.00 p.m. I am a wuss when it comes to high winds.

So far no snacking but my resolve is being sorely tested. Nothing to do with OH - just thoroughly fed up of not having house to self.

duck Much of the health benefits of fasting come from "autophagy", which only seems to be switched on by fasting, not by standard diets which allow far more calories.

Fasting shuts down fat storage and activates autophagy,
which is the clearing out of unhealthy cells (defective / abnormal / pathogens)
and stimulates the body to build healthy new ones.

This can help some chronic conditions such as kidney disease, T2.
Also, research indicates it may reduce the risk of some degenerative diseases of aging, such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's.
The Science section at the bottom of the OP references some of the scientific research

Important:
Fasting is healthy under the established protocols (e.g. 5:2, ADF, BSD), which ensure sufficient nutrients.
BUT never exceed these protocols;
especially don't go for the ridiculous maple syrup type extended diets - they are starvation, not fasting.

Autophagy is leading edge science, but is well-established officially now:

Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy.
This is his Nobel lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Dr Jason Fung is a Canadian kidney specialist who uses fasting to help patients with conditions like T2, high BP.
I've quoted him quite often - I use his graphs to explain why snacking hinders fat-burning

Stay safe if you go out today Granny it’s awful out there.

I’m having a few issues with my running in that there is a discrepancy between my watch and the Tredmill. The run I’m doing uses the Nike app as my “proof” of my runs but it’s measuring more than the Tredmill so I’m logging it all and will have to make up the shortfall. It seems the Nike app is accurate outside as it uses GPS but it doesn’t indoors.

That’s very interesting BCF, I only heard Autophagy yesterday and it sounds fascinating.

I’ve seen many people on another 5:2 page who do no food fasts they eat there evening meal that night, fast the whole 24 hours and don’t eat until the following day. I wouldn’t even entertain that idea. I’ve twice done B2B fasts but personally find it very hard as I only eat one meal in the evening. I much prefer to spit the FD up throughout the week.

Hello 5/2 ers. Failed any semblance of sensible eating over Xmas. And also failed extra FD to counteract this (I optimistically announced it here then slinked off when I didn't manage it!) But went back to original plan & had first FD yesterday. Was going to put offweighing but did on a whim & I'm 2lb up. Which is fine! I was expecting a disaster.

I suppose really how much weight can you put on in a week!

So pleased this thread is here to keep me motivated. If not might not have got back on the wagon yesterday. Thanks all. & hello to everyone that's since joined in

Going to go vegetarian this month for a shake up & save on food bills oh & do couch to 5k. Sorry not totally related to 5/2 but I find posting here makes me more likely to do it!

Well done, just and everyone else who is returning promptly, after the long feasting season
You'll soon be back on track - and your prompt action has prevented that gain increasing

Anyone who has put on several lb:
Not much of that will be extra bodyfat
A lot will be undigested food and retained water due to excess carbs.
After 1-2 FDs - and a couple of good poops ! - you should see a good chunk of that gone

So, don't be discouraged, get back into the fasting swing !

You're so wise BCF - how do you know all this stuff so well ?
Still haven't managed a proper FD as been quite poorly with throat/chest virus. However I have been eating really healthily and lightly and this morning was 3lbs down so back to pre Christmas weight. Still plenty to lose but that's a relief.
Delighted to have found this thread and plan to hang in here and really get back to woe that not only gets my weight back down but makes me feel healthy again.

Well, I snacked. And late night at that. And mentally felt better for it. I did disassemble a cot and put up 4 drawer flatpack as distraction first, but it was another hour before I finally had 'alone' time and I spent it up close and personal with 100g of frozen blueberries.

NSV - 1.5 cm waist loss when I measured this morning. Back under the 50:50 ratio.

Quacking - that's an odd discrepancy between the Nike app and the treadmill - didn't realise you could use it other than outside though. Is it out by much? As for accuracy outside, my DD and I run occasionally together, side by side, chatting. Her stats ALWAYS show she's run slightly further than I have, and hence faster!

Just I used C25K last year to ease me back into running without injury. I was sceptic at first, but found it to be a great programme and really liked the NHS podcast I downloaded to go with it.

Great SV Carfish - hope you feel better soon.

My goals for today. No snacking. Short run if the wind ever dies down.

Keep safe in this weather everyone.

Granny - from the research I did it seems when your doing a indoor run it’s going at a average distance as it’s constantly taking heart rate. But outside it’s on GPS.

I went into settings and turned off outside run.

Tredmill tally over 3 days is dead on 4 Miles the Nike app says 4.76

I braved the Boditrax machine at the gym yesterday.
3lb gain over Christmas
10lb to shift to get back to happy weight.
Term starts tomorrow so the proper routines return : bliss

Hi all, I'll have my first back to it FD on Monday. Saw this article on the BBC and thought of this thread and the no more than one fizzy drink a day rule of thumb.

That article is very interesting Mship.

Did anyone catch the diet myth documentary on channel 5 last night? It was very interesting shedding light on the low fat industry.

I just wish the supermarkets would catch up as everything seems to be low fat atm.

duck Try to eat simple, minimally processed food - doesn't need much cooking effort
It'a mostly ready-made and artificial stuff that is lowfat and / or packed with E numbers

Run done. Nike app officially sucked today. 2.29 run recorded as 2.17 miles - according to app map I was running through houses and back gardens!

Tomorrow is a rest day. I have evening class so may get away with a FD as I won't be eating with everyone else. Will have to see.

Quacking - the supermarkets will never 'catch-up' as their goal is to make money for their shareholders. It's in their interest to feed us myths of low fat as they can sneak in high sugar for flavour - keeps us hungry. Then they discount the crap high calorie snacks so we put weight back on and then they can sell us 'nutritionally balanced' diet products. It's a win win for them.

MShip I am so glad I don't like fizzy drinks!

I am stuffed
NFD so big supper of leftover enchilladas - I reckon each one had three portions of veg in it as well as one of meat and enough chipotle on top that I ate slowly and drank a LOT of water with the meal.

Cutting back on booze, sugar, cheese and nibbles is the way to go.

Can I join. First FD today - I feel as if I could eat my arm. 3stone to lose and hypothyroid