5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome back, positivity
As tip said, many 5:2ers have done fasted training for years

Either HIIT or lifting weights are ideally suited to FDs - they access bodyfat as fuel - so go for it !

btw, For everyone:
On FDs, best to avoid medium intensity cardio sessions - e.g. running, swimming, elliptical trainer - as these use more glycogen for fuel and your glycogen levels will be low on FDs
If you want to do cardio on FDs, stick to HIIT e.g. sprint intervals, or do a a short high intensity session, e.g. 20 minutes at a fast pace.

Thanks guys, no excuses then!
oddsocks I used to enjoy a smoothie but after doing 5 2 I stopped as it would give me a big sugar rush and it made me realise how many calories I was consuming but never feeling full.

Thanks purple.

BCF I had no idea about no intense cardio on FDs. Maybe doing BSD for a week for me is a good idea then whilst I get into the swing of it again.

After I did the 8 weeks I did say never again as it was very hard but I did think as a short term fix after a holiday etc it wasn’t a bad idea but only if I go straight back into 5:2 as I do get complacent / binge.

BCF & Ta1kin what do you both do on FD HIIT?

I'm not a big HIIT fan .... I do swimming / yoga / bodyweight training
but several hour of it on a gym morning

Just checking in, going to do my first FD at the weekend, not ready mentally or practically to do FD at work.

Ta1kin - I doubt it. He loves his discounted cakes far too much and unlike me is able to exercise control and not scoff the lot at once! We have eaten earlier tonight though, so that's a start.

Congratulations on your run quacking - I managed mine today too but was slightly deflated that it felt so hard yet was so slow. I should probably work out how to sync music to my Nike app. On the plus side it means plenty of room for improvement.

So far no snacks although I'm beginning to crave a post dinner peanut butter sandwich. Early night not an option as the gym classes I go to are so popular that they need to be booked as soon as they're released online which is at midnight fortnightly in advance. OH has just walked in with his second mince pie which isn't helping. Going to have to paint my nails ....

Hello lovely fasters, my name is Persis and I lost 15kg on 5:2 and have kept it off for nearly 2 years by doing 2 FD a week. Good luck to you all in 2018!!

Can I ask about “clean fasting”? On my FD I don’t eat anything until supper, and on NFD I don’t usually eat until lunch. I do, however, have coffee with milk, Diet Coke, sugar-free squash, chewing gum, etc. I’m really happy with my weight but a friend of mine tells me the other health benefits for IF are emphasised by having a “clean fast” - nothing except water and black coffee in your fasting period. If that’s true I’ll definitely do it, but thought I’d check with you knowledgable people first!

Fist bumps to the Tuesday fasters!!

Welcome to all the newbies / oldies returning

Persis that sounds like a great loss! Well done for maintaining. What do you do to maintain?

FD yesterday was tough. Mainly because I skipped breakfast and lunch as well. I find it easier if I have something small for breakfast. I went to dm's in the afternoon and ended up having dinner there at 4.30pm so the evening felt long. I went to sleep at 9 so that was great. Unfortunately ds decided to have a bad night so was up from 3 ish on and off.

Scales pay off this morning though - down another 0.6lb

Hi all
So motivating to read all these updates. Really glad I found this group thread .
I didn't fast yesterday but did eat very healthily and lightly so am feeling slightly less 'blobby' today. Which is nice.
Have a horrible throat/chest thing which is making me feel very sorry for myself and making exercise impossible really. Bit sorry not to have been able to start the new year and new regime with a bit more gusto but I suppose it can't be helped.
The more I read the more convinced I am that 5:2 is the way to go. Keep posting all your lovely helpful stuff !

Well I’ve had a bloody Christmas miracle!

Last weighed in 3ish weeks ago - stepped on the scales this morning and I’ve actually lost 2lbs since then Now sitting at 10st 4lbs. Mini FDs, occasional FDs and 16:8 most days has clearly been working!

Decorations are coming down and I’m ready to start the New Year today. FD for me - anyone else?

Welcome back, *persis
*

• A one-off zero-cal FD (which is usually 36 hrs) won't lose muscle, but regularly done 2 x weekly risks doing so.
  Retaining muscle during weight loss is an important health aim, not just for shape

• Varady's human ADF studies compared 0 / ¼ / ½ TDEE FDs and found the optimum mix of weight loss and muscle retention was ¼ TDEE
  In practice, 500 / 600 FDs work for most women / men (Mosely & Varady findings)

My standard advice on FDs
to retain muscle mass, I strongly recommend:

• eat your 500 cals during the FD (600 for blokes)
• no longer than 22 hours fast, i.e. between your last NFD meal and your FD meal
• include some protein, especially if exercising

Types of food/drink

• No alcohol whatsoever - that's not negotiable
• No junky food, e.g. crisps, deep-fried, cake , biscuits, sweets, choc (but 90% cocoa is fine)
• No added sugar (except in hot drinks if you really must) and especially not in fizzy drinks
• If you really need fizz (even with sweeteners) then no more than one 330 ml can or glass, preferably not cola.

To maximise health benefits OPTIONALLY on FDs
but not if it makes the FDs too tough - sustainability is more important

• No fizz, especially cola
• Not too much protein - 40g on FDs is plenty to retain muscle
• Have fish and veg, especially raw veg, e.g. salmon & salad

To maximise health benefits on NFDs:
(Since you have 5 of them to only 2 FDs)

• If you smoke, STOP
• Always keep within NHS alcohol guidelines
• No snacking between meals
• Have fish 2-3 times per week
• Take regular exercise - build up to daily 10k steps or gym / home gym

Well done on your run Granny. I used the Nike app for the first time. If you look in settings I think you can add your music. I did on mine but can’t remember how I did it.

It’s hard, I’m also slow but as you say, lots of room for improvement.

I had a early night as felt like rubbish could quite possibly be carb withdrawal as I had a banging headache.

Keep yourself well carfish! I don’t want to jinx myself but since I’ve been fasting I’ve not been poorly, the odd headache yes but missed all the bugs that have done the rounds on our family twice. It’s bloody amazing.

To all the newbies, and Granny and your DH id recommend a watch of the original MM 5:2 documentary on bbc I player. It’s absolutely amazing. I watch it yearly and it restores my faith in what we are doing. If you’ve not seen it check it out

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lxyzc/horizon-20122013-3-eat-fast-and-live-longer

FYI, there are 2 main kinds of fasting:_

Intermittent Fasting e.g. 5:2, ADF

• done every week
• fine for most people, with average health
• for both weight loss and health benefits
• FDs with calories

Periodic fasting

• done occasionally, but for longer periods e.g. 5-10 days every 3 months
• ONLY with medical supervision, or can be dangerous
• for specific health reasons - to reduce high BP, avoiding return of cancer
• often water only, or VLCD and very restricted types of food

Amazing SV over the vacation, bug !
You were obvioualy very disciplined

Well done Bug, that’s absolutely amazing.

Thank you - I had to jump on and off the scales about 6 times to double check

granny On your FDs, do you let your OH handle his own meals - iirc, isn't he retired now ?

Brilliant BCF, I knew you would know! I think I will try then cutting out the Diet Coke (my Dentist will approve!) as a first step and see how I go!

Right, this might sound a bit much so ignore me if I’m annoying, but I’d like to share something really important that I have slowly realised over my 2 years of 5:2. My body is IMPORTANT and it deserves to be looked after. When I eat now I either want the food to be nutritious (and for me, eating more protein has really helped me) or extravagantly delicious. Especially over Christmas I used to mindlessly eat great boxes of chocolate and biscuits just in front of the TV - without thinking or really enjoying it. I still do sometimes eat when I’m bored/tired/sad but I know I’m doing it now and I never feel bad or guilty about it. My weight is stable and I feel good about myself. My waist measurement has continued to go down even though my weight hasn’t changed and I no longer look pregnant. I have lots of energy even on FD.

I can’t imagine not fasting now, and I hope I will just do it forever.

Well done Persis you’ve done amazing.

And what a revelation and a change in mindset to have.

I understand what you mean, 6 months ago I came to the conclusion if I’m having a treat I’m going to use cake as my example I’d rather have a lovely slice of cake than a whole block of adequate cake. I find I enjoy it much more than endlessly shoveling it down.

I agree wholeheartedly it’s a absolutely amazing WOL and I love it.

Hlbug that's great!

I've just checked my log book and the closest I weighed to Christmas was on the 20th and I was 9 st 11lbs then. 9 st 8 this morning so 3 lbs down

Just the encouragement I needed. Just got to keep on keep on going!

Thursday will be my next FD I think

purple that’s a brilliant loss over Christmas! High Five!!

Well done purple that’s amazing too. Some great success stories on here today.

Well done Bug and Purple - brilliant to have the scales recognising the lost inches.

Early dinner yesterday left me feeling very hungry before bedtime, but it was quite carb heavy so I need to get a better balance I think.

Yes BigChoc OH is retired now and likes to cook. FD I do my own cooking. We have visitors still until Sunday so no FDs until they go. Thursday I'll be doing a one meal day instead.

Goals for today - no snacking. Eat within TDEE. Eat dinner by 8.30 p.m.

Great holiday SVs from bug, purple

and important lighbulb NSVs from persis, duck about no more mindless eating, insulting your body with junk

• we deserve better !

I've posted before that I reserve sweet treats for the dessert trolley at a really good restaurant, or special bakery
I still enjoy sweet treats, but they have become occasional and high quality, so I have far more pleasure from them

Daily check in. Hello to those I haven’t met yet!

Feeling very down about myself today. Doubting myself and that this will work. Don’t know why as it was working before Christmas! Back to square one and could kick myself esp when I see the success of others.

Day three of cutting out processed crap in prep for first fast day on Mon. Today I have had homemade broccoli and Stilton soup with a dash of cream and a jacket sweet potato and salad.

Feeling a bit under the weather- headache and feeling sick last couple of days. Loads of viruses around!

Best, all.