5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome carfish.

For FD I personally have the same meal of mushroom omelette plain with mushrooms and 2 tomatoes as I find it really filling. I was having it with cheeese to begin with but it’s high in cals so tried it without and it made no difference.

I occasionally have a tuna salad, salad is great as you can have such a huge portion for very little cals.

Or I sometimes have 2 boiled eggs, small slice of cheese, few slices of ham tomatoes and a couple pickled onions. I tend to do this if I’m having a FD when my DD is home as she likes this as a meal and saves me having to cook apart from boiled eggs.

Welcome oddsocks and carfish, I'm sure you'll both do really well with this WOE. I've been particularly grateful for the tools it has given me over the festive period and I'm hoping when I brave the scales on Tuesday that they will be kind

On FDs I'm a fan of scrambled eggs / omelette with smoked salmon or some spicy chicken. Soup is also a good lunch option, particularly if you like miso soup as it's particularly low cal. M&S etc "diet" ready meals can also be quite filling if you need a quick meal. Personally I find it easier to make do with black tea and water throughout the day, then have a stir fry / Spanish chicken or something else with the rest of the family at dinner time.

I double up 5:2 with 16:8 most days and that's just my WOE now. Only eating lunch and dinner has really helped me - no breakfast, no after dinner nibbles in front of the sofa, and no snacks during the day. I try to only eat my calories and if I want a smoothie or latte have learnt to do so as "pudding",

I like IF as I don't believe Kate Moss had ever had a really good donut or cheeseburger when she famously said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels". So, so wrong . Instead, my mantra through this journey has been "It's no fun loosing weight, but it's no fun being overweight either". I've lost 2.5 stone since July and when I last weighed (before Christmas so Christ knows where I am now) I was only about 2-3 pounds away from goal weight. But I'm not ready to stop yet, and will be readjusting my goal for January.

oddsocks As I posted, I would recommend solid food rather than smoothies on a FD
If you really want to try an FD smoothie, then go formthe lowest GI:
say mix 20-30g low carb protein powder with 50-80g berries in either water or unsweetened almond milk

I suggest keeping other fruit smoothies, for NFDs, maybe as your dessert after a meal - and no more than 1 portion of fruit in a smoothie per person.

Welcome, carfish
I suggest choosing whichever 2 days are without social engagements that have food and also avoid days when you are not around food and have little to do, e.g. pt days at home

For FDs, eat meals and avoid snacks
Base meals around protein, masses of veg and optionally a small portion of non-junky starchy carbs

Good FD meals are
stews, curries - try a small portion of brown / red or quinoa instead of white rice or oasta
salads - dress with lemon ; vinegar
stirfries - prawn is especially low-cal & filling

Granny One big meal today is a great aim
However, don't worry if this is the one night per year when you also have 1000 cals of late night junk and 500 cals booze - one night out of 365 makes no difference longterm.
Relax and enjoy NYE

Frequent Late night eating - BP and Cardiovascular events

BP should naturally reduce overnight.
Late eating has been shown in clinical studies to hinder this reduction and increase the risk of high BP by around 40%, also increases risk of CV disease / events

Fit, younger folk, as always, may get away with this, but it tends to catch up with you in middle age.

(one reason why shift workers tend to suffer poorer health )

Recommendations

• Aim to finish eating 3 hours before trying to sleep
• Avoid a nocturnal schedule if possible, even when you still have the 3 hrs gap. So, dinner 8pm or earlier.
• No late snacks / nibbling / alcohol after supper However, a small bedtime milky drink would be OK if this really helps you sleep

Researchers have set up slightly different test conditions.
Hence they vary slightly in recommending last meal at 7pm, or 7:30pm, or 8pm - depending on where their study cutoff was between night owls and conventional schedules.

Research:
Issues with frequent late eating, that have been shown up by clinical research as increasing risks of BP & heart disease:

1. Food quality - late night eating tends to be impulsive, junky, carby / fatty combinations

2. BUT even those eating healthy food have been shown to suffer from increased risk of high BP & CVD

3. Circadian rhythm.
   Even when leaving a 3 hour gap before sleep, human beings tend not to do as well longterm on a night owl cycle:
   e.g. high BP, drop in measured memory ability, lower quality of sleep, less efficient body processes that occur during sleep

Fast days are of course different to NFDs:

5:2 results suggest eating most cals in the evening meal on FDs can slightly boosts weight loss compared to 3 tiny meals.

However, even on FDs, if you have a 500 cal supper, then I would try to have this at least 2 hrs before bed.
That would also boost the overnight fast wrt fat-burning

weight loss

Several studies show that a large evening meal hinders weight loss / increases gain

e.g. one study took 93 overweight women and put them on a reduced (1400 cal) daily diet of 3 meals, no snacks
They split them into 2 groups:

Group 1) 700 cal breakfast, 500 cal lunch, 200 cal dinner
Group 2) 200 cal breakfast, 500 cal lunch, 700 cal dinner

After 12 weeks, group 1 lost 8.7 kg vs 3.6 kg for group 2.

Thanks for the welcome and the advice much appreciated x

Thanks BigChocFrenzy

I ♥️ this thread

Happy New Year everyone

I have ate far too much... had a cheese burger meal plus a fried chicken wrap my stomach feels super stretched yet I am still craving some chocolate.....

FD for
Me tomorrow!

Hello all. I’m back. With an extra 9 pounds of weight.

I suck. However, I’m all stocked up and ready to go again as of tomorrow morning. Planning to firstly remove all the sugar and rice/pasta/white potatoes/bread this week, then start fasting again next Monday.

I have decided that I need to cut sugar etc as a permanent life-style choice as I can’t moderate my intake. It’s like a drug to me- I’m absolutely addicted and I can’t control myself. I was perfectly happy cutting it out totally for three months in the summer so I think it will be fine.

Planning to have an extra litre of water per day also, calculate my TDEE every day @1800, do more weights and have ordered a Fitbit which I am very excited about!

Apologies for disappearing.

Welcome back, peachy
That sounds a good plan, tailored for you as an individual.
You are getting back on track

Nobody here sucks; we totally rock < fist bumps all round >

Enjoy NYE, peeps and see you tomorrow in 2018

2017, my fifth New Years Eve since discovering 5:2
and still loving it.

Fizzy Wine tonight, eyes on the prize from tomorrow

I just want to say a happy new year to everyone and say a big thanks to everyone on this thread. It’s been my life line this last year.

I’ve been kept in check and been given some invaluable advice. I’m sure we all have. I honestly couldn’t of done it without this thread.

So huge thanks to everyone and HUGE thanks to BCF for running this thread and being a fountain of knowledge.

Here’s to a amazing 2018.

I will do a proper weigh in tomorrow morning with measurements.

Happy new year to you too taking, quacking

Hope it's a great year for all and thanks from me too

Happy New Year, everyone !

I'm having my 1st FD of 2018; anyone else ?

Happy New Year everyone! May your 2018 be peaceful and full of happiness

Definitely no FD for me today - NYD in Scotland is a major event, and traditionally more widely celebrated than Christmas. My mum still remembers shops being open on Christmas Day up here, but to open up on NYD was completely unheard of. We're all going round to PILs this afternoon for a traditional steak pie supper which, as they are originally from the West Coast, will also be filled with square (lorne) sausage as traditionally that was always used to fill out the pie as steak meat was too expensive to buy alone. Then the boozing will start again! 2nd of January is also a public holiday in Scotland - for very good reason!

I’m in. I’ve had just 1 FD in 2 weeks now. And I’ve gained 5.2 lbs.

HLBug whereabouts in Scotland are you? I'm in Edinburgh

Quacking, no sweat. You'll get rid of that in no time

I was all geared up for FD but now I'm like hmmmm. I'll have a mini one at least. Feel very dehydrated so that's step 1

purple I'm up in the frozen north

That’s a good point Purple I must remember to drink more!

I’m going to be strict this week. Like Peachy I have a bit of a sugar craving and it’s like crack to me so I’m ditching the sugar this week and will lay off the refined carbs.

Excersize starts today aswell slow and steady but I would like to make fitness a part of my life.

Good luck to today’s fasters.

Happy new year everyone!

Thanks BigChoc - that research about late night eating is really interesting especially in relation to BP. I do need to get my head around how I can change my late night eating habit but it's not going to be easy as my OH is only onboard as long as it doesn't impact on him.

My goals for today - no snacks; go for a run; eat within TDEE.

Good luck those on FDs today. To all north of the border, enjoy your festivities tonight.

Funnily enough if I eat carbs or sugar after 6pmmy heart pounds and I can’t sleep. Must be the aforementioned.

Happy New Year all- successful first day with no sugar/refined carbs so far. Glad I’m not alone quacking!

Hi everyone. I was on this thread about three years ago and lost a stone. I've since had a baby and the combination of breastfeeding and lots of walking on maternity leave meant I lost all the baby weight. However I'm about to stop feeding her and old bad habits of snacking and late night chocolate binges have meant the weight is creeping on so I'm going to go back to 5 2.
There is a HIIT class I want to do on a Monday but I also want to fast that day. What are peoples views about exercise on a fast day?

Peachy it’s hard to break that sugar habit isn’t it? I find I’m climbing the walls for a few days after stopping the sugar.

I’ve decided that I wanted to give the BSD another go for upto a week. As I wanted to cut sugar and refined carbs anyway it seemed like a good idea. The bonus is I can have my whey protein before I run and still have a 500 cal meal in the evening.
I was making my shake earlier and adding it up on MFP and knew there was no way I could have a 200 cal meal for tea, as on FD I always save all my cals for my evening meal.

I managed 2 Miles jogging today and I’m really pleased with myself as last time I did it was July and did a C25K podcast today I just cracked on with it.

I still hate it but I’m really motivated to get my 25 mile challenge medal.

Quacking that's great! Well done!

positivity
exercising while fasting is FINE - just drink plenty of water.
Bigchoc and I have been doing it for many years.
Congrats on the baby.

Granny
Can you convince your DH to support you more on the basis that fasting will reduce his risk of getting dementia - which it will.