5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

healthier takeaways

Base on lean protein, masses of veg; Optionally add moderate portion of one starchy carb.
Avoid deep-fried food
Avoid oily / creamy / sugary sauces

Pret:
soups, salads & wraps rather than sandwiches. V healthy = e.g. crayfish & avocado. Salted popcorn, fruit salad
Avoid: sweet popcorn, flapjacks etc

Italian:
Fish, meat, pasta with tomato-based sauce
Avoid: pizza, garlic bread, creamy sauces in pasta dishes

Indian:
Tandoori (i.e. without sauce), raita, dhal (lentils), boiled rice
Avoid creamy sauces e.g. masala, poppadoms, pakoras or dishes where they add lots of oil on top

Thai:
Stir-fry, steamed fish or meat, boiled rice
Avoid: curries (loaded with high cal coconut cream)

Chinese:
Stir-fry, Szechuan prawns, steamed veg, boiled rice
Avoid: egg-fried rice, sweet & sour, prawn crackers, anything battered or "crispy" (= deepfried)

Turkish / Kebabs:
Shish kebab, salad, pita bread
Avoid: doner kebab

Greek:
Grilled fish, lamb, mediterranean veg, tomato / veg rice, pita bread

Fish & chips - sometimes you just gotta !
Go for thick cut chips and add mushy peas
Don't have fried batter scraps or onion rings

We had a McMuffin on Sunday (not a FD, and not something I do often, but DH fancied one on our walk in the snowy woods with the dog). I swapped the hash brown for the carrot sticks, which I saved for yesterday's FD.

I've been reading more about consuming too much sugar, and I'm going to make a concerted effort to reduce mine, especially to see if it's been affecting a skin rash on my neck.

Anyone fasting today? I am, been tracking my NFDs (& consequently am well aware I've gone well over on occasions) but it is making me develop better habits. Unsure if I'll lose this week. But my December mantra is just to not put on what I've lost. I've heard (maybe here?) that it's common to put on 7lbs over Christmas. I could easily do that & id be right back where I started!

I'm also fasting today - very much needed after this weekend. The next few weeks are littered with events and nights out, so I can well see how 7lb could sneak on justanother. That's the best thing about this way of life - self regulating!

Mother this is “me” enjoying best Belgian frites ever...

Mother
Around a pound a week is just fine - that is 4 stone in a year after all

Frites, mayonnaisse and a nice Belgian beer - bliss

Fasting here! Just keeping on keeping on really! Hoping for a little loss this week after two sts. However really just thinking about keeping up habits over the chridtmas period to limit damage! Have definately had a couple of big meals recently whichg have made me feel ill so stomach shrinking!

Not fasting today but had a sore tummy yesterday after takeaway the previous night (before I read any replies on here, promise!) serves me right! Anyway yesterday I had approx 700 cals so turned into mini fast.

I feel much more in control following 5:2 and I've decided I'm going to start again - I had taken a break because I was feeling rubbish with the vit D deficiency but I feel worse overall without the security of 5:2. I also find that the fasting helps me energy levels /general well-being. I think the break from digesting food must really help.

mother I was definitely over eating on NFDs. Loosely tracking on MFP has slowed me down a bit! But then I was staying the same & you're still losing, so what you're doing is working really.

HLbug ahh those frites! I want to visit Belgium now.

purple hope you feel better soon

FD gone pretty well. Made it under 500. Normally more like 6-700!

Oh dear oh dear
went out for Dim Sum tonight but they were only doing set menus
so ordered the 2nd smallest
and it was HUGE - delicious and nice ingredients but masses
we left loads but still feel stuffed !
Mini fast beckons tomorrow

mother Most people average longterm 1lb per week (depending on how much they have to lose)
However, most have a higher initial loss in the first 2 weeks than later

Are you already within healthy BMI ? If so, your rate of loss is reasonable.
However, if you've a fair way to go, then I suggest looking at the NFDs - but no need to mfp yet

Tips:

• No snacking or grazing between meals -
  "snacks" include any fruit, juice, latte, alcohol or other calorific drink

• Keep the fries to no more than twice per week and don't have seconds of them
  There is plenty of delic Belgian cuisine to try - go for variety and try out veg sides too

• On days when you have a heavy / treat meal, e.g. with fries, then don't have another treat meal
  e.g. if breakfast is delic Belgian waffles or pastry, then don't have fries or crepe Suzette for lunch or supper

• Drink more water and keep within nhs alcohol guidelines

I hope you regain your strength v soon, purple
If you find fasting helps, then I suggest you try 2 mini FDs weekly, but aim for 800-1000 cals
Remember, with Bit D deficiency, eat as much fish as you can, also egg yolks

tip Some places do serve ridiculously large portions
However, I find that the restaurants with the best food generally serve sensible portions - makes sense that they concentrate on quality rather than quantity.
I had a delic 5-course meal on Sunday ( ) and I thoroughly enjoyed every choice morsel, but I wasn't stuffed - it was also my only meal of the day, so over 2,000 cals was fine.

(btw, I noticed that thread last week where so many overweight folk claimed they couldn't finish a 3-course meal: I suspect they were snacking and grazing, so their tum was always half-full)

What I've learned to do (after much work, being a natural glutton ! ):

• I stop when I feel pleasantly full
  That amount just hits the sweet spot of maximum pleasure - feeling stuffed actually reduces the enjoyment, as waddling around overfull isn't comfortable

• I've also learned to chew my food properly and not rush a meal. So my tum has time to realise it's filling up.
  I even talk to my companions - which was a change for me (too many years of survival of the fittest at 3 unis, then works canteens with only 30 mins break)
  Drinking at least a full glass of water and / or herbal tea also slows down my previous breakneckpace

mother Sounds like your DH would lose pretty quickly on 5:2
5:2 is excellent at burning bodyfat around the mid-section, so long as people are reasonably sensible about alcohol and sugar (which tend to pile on fat there)

Mother I would definitely try using MFP for a bit real eye opener.

I had a real eye opener yesterday my cottage pie I made. Mince, mushrooms, tomatoes, mixed beans onions and Swede and carrot mashed for the topping with a smidge of cream and butter. My head said about 800 cals. Wrong very wrong 1135 and that was without counting the carrot and Swede.

My TDEE is only 1400.

Also mother I would ignore your DHs weight loss as there TDEES are so much higher than ours they seem to drop weight so fast as the deficit must so be huge.

My DHs is 1000 more than mine. He’s not overweight his BMI was 21 and he dropped a stone in 2 months not by changing a thing just sticking to 16-8. They are swines

I had my diary out yesterday and worked out all my FD in and around our schedule over the festive period and just by doing that makes me feel more in control however silly that sounds.

Last year I fasted up until Xmas eve, then I ate everything in sight and didn’t stop until March and came back here 2 stone heavier .

I don’t plan doing the same this year. I’ve actually decided I will continue to weigh every day as if I’m not weighing in in denial and usually gaining.

I’ve decided on continuing 2 fasts per week as hopefully a bit of damage limitation.

That’s the plan anyway and I’m going to try my hardest to stick to it!

Hello. I haven't been fasting or even watching my tdee this last couple of weeks. On the plus side the 5lb in 10 days gain the other week wasn't a true gain. Everyone has been ill and miserable in our house, but we are more or less back in action again. Snacking cancelled. FD tomorrow.

Bigchoc
We were the only non Chinese family in there !
I suspect locals do not order set menus - we know now for next time.
I felt bad wasting the food but it was the right thing to do

ouch
One of the trainers at my gym was saying that from overeating to laying down as fat is around 14 days
so under eating in between reverses
not sure how true it is,
but fits with how quickly the Christmas food bulge can be made to vanish !!

Glad that family ouch are well again.
Good luck on your FD

FD here for me, I’m actually looking forward to it.

FD here too... don't feel very motivated today as am at home this morning with no kids, a very rare occurrence! And feel I should be able to relax for a bit (for some reason I feel this should involve biscuits ) silly really.

Also made cauliflower cheese yesterday & ate then tracked... 800 calories!! But it's mainly cauliflower I thought.. conveniently forgot the butter & cheese etc....

Good luck fellow fasters.

Checking in for a FD.

Good luck to all of the other Thursday fasters.

Just another, I’ve found the same that cauliflower is pretty high in calories.

I tend to make cauliflower mash it up with some onions and a smidge of cheese sauce as a sub for mash but as veggies go it’s pretty calorific.