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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2017 20:33

Bovril is an excellent choice on FDs and only 10 cals per cube / teasp)

  • get the beef Bovril, as the chicken or veg versions have some odd gunk added

No need to give up cake or other things you love - or there wouldn't be many of us on 5:2 !
Just not on the 2 FDs
On the NFDs, have your cake as pud - because we have NO snacking between meals as a lifetime WOL

OP posts:
1moreRep · 08/12/2017 08:49

hi all i'm doing a friday fastday as yesterday was a big fail (tin of celebrations were opened on my desk)

purpleviolet1 · 08/12/2017 08:59

Finished yesterday with about 1200 calories.

Xmas meal out tonight so skipping lunch. Had weetobix for breakfast.

Not fasting at the moment as I feel
Rubbish with the vit D deficiency. Just trying to have sensible NFD's and mini fasts if I feel up to it.

HLBug · 08/12/2017 09:10

SV here this morning!! This whoooooosh is bloody amazing Smile another 3lb off this week which takes me down to 10st 6lb and....HEALTHY BMI Shock I’m in shock and very grateful to have found this group!

HLBug · 08/12/2017 09:18

07 July
Starting Weight: 12 stone 12 pounds
Target Weight: 10 stone 3 pounds (Wedding Day Weight)

07 December
Current Weight: 10 stone 6 pounds
Weeks on 5:2: 22 weeks
Total Loss: 34 pounds

purpleviolet1 · 08/12/2017 09:39

GrinGrinGrin hlbug!! That is bloody marvellous! I'm so pleased for you. Well done. Buy yourself a non-food treat!

Justanothernap · 08/12/2017 13:20

HLbug that's amazing... you've done so well! I hope I can say the same a few months down the line Xmas Smile

I'm doing ok ish. Festive meals out have taken me way over my TDEE. But it wasn't mindless eating & I really enjoyed them. And I've not snacked. So some progress, some backsliding!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2017 23:14

Brilliant SV and milestone, bug
34 lb loss and now in the healthy BMI range
Wow, look what you have done ! Grin

Only 3lb to your target (and then - like several 5:2ers - you might decide a new lower target is achievable)

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeace · 09/12/2017 11:45

Well done HLBug
You have put down two heavy shopping bags every second of every day !
It really is that much of a difference as far as your knee and ankle joints are concerned.
And the joy of 5:2 is that it is sustainable.

BigChoc will be proud of me.
Went for my works Christmas lunch / piss up yesterday
As usual we left the pub around 7pm
But I'd been drinking halves rather than pints and made sure I had equal amounts of water as booze
so my total calorie intake was FAR lower, I still had a blast, and woke up clear headed this morning.
result

1moreRep · 09/12/2017 12:29

well done hbug!

i'm down the 1 pound i put on last week- so i'm happy- to be honest i'm quite happy with my body at the moment- my abs are back and clothes look better.

ive just had my nfd treat breakfast after a harsh gym session mushrooms on toast with camembert - bliss!

i have really enjoyed this process so far and feel better- it's made me so mindful of calories

1moreRep · 09/12/2017 12:32

ta1k also massive well done as these small changes make it sustainable

ive come into this willing to learn and the ben comber pod cast (free) is helping me learn about nutrition and giving me a new (non crossfit) perspective on fitness

one of the main things i'm learning is that sustainability is key- i find working out easy and have done it for over 10 years so it's sustainable and a way of life. ive reflected on this and tried to learn how i can transfer it to nutrition.** and the key is being kind to myself and enjoying it

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2017 17:35

tip StarStarStarStarStar

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 10/12/2017 20:02

How is everyone doing?

Feeling a bit down Sad physically feeling rubbish, achey, tired. Hope the vit D kicks in real soon.

I'm weighing 9 st 12. Two pounds heavier than pre holiday / pre feeling rubbish.

Bought an Apple iwatch today and hope it will encourage me to move around more. Challenge me to get out for walks etc.

Need a tip on how to avoid unnecessary takeaways. Dh just suggested we have one but we had a filling lunch (salmon peppers onion stir fry with boiled rice) and so I've just had a cup of tea now as didn't feel hungry. Admittedly with 3 choc digestives as I thought I wouldn't be eating again. He is suggesting we have one as we are watching a film and feels like we need something to do. I've just done a few toe taps Grin but need some sort of rule like... when we feel like a takeaway do x, if after a certain length of the the urge hasn't passed then we can go ahead and have one. X obviously needs to be something distracting to help us recognise whether we are indeed hungry.

Excuse me if I am talking rubbish.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2017 21:07

Sorry to hear you are still poorly, purple

I suggest these takeaway rules:

  • NO takeaway on days when you have broken the NO snacks between meals rule
    or (n/a for you) if you have exceeded the nhs alcohol guidelines that day

  • Takeaway should be no more than once per week (unless it is from Pret a Manger)

  • On that day, have it as your main meal and treat combined for the day
    i.e. no cake or choc biscuits etc that day - and if you have had another meal, it should not have been a heavy one.

  • Otherwise, leave it for the the next available day and plan your meals in advance for that day and takeaway

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2017 21:12

If you are hungry despite a filling meal earlier - and those choc biscuits might have messed up blood sugar - then have a healthy home-cooked meal instead of takeaway
OR
a healthy takeaway like Pret

Help your body recover by replacing crap by nourishing food with lots of veg and fruit.
The salmon lunch was an excellent start. Keep going like that - but with more veg

OP posts:
HLBug · 10/12/2017 22:33

Also helpful to only crave takeaways when your village/town/city has a foot of snow and nowhere is prepared to deliver. That stopped me in my tracks this weekend Confused (leftover bag of oven chips rubbish in comparison)

So...anyway...well...the less said about this weekend the better then! NHS alcohol guidelines you say? Bloody December Blush If I STS this week I’ll be thrilled.

purpleviolet1 · 10/12/2017 22:54

Excellent rules BCF. Thank you

quackingduck222 · 11/12/2017 08:27

Been at my restart for 5 weeks and have lost 8.4lbs. Super pleased with that.

Not had a bad week managed to get my 2 FD in this week. Had 2 low carb days as I’m finding that’s personally good for me. When I say low carb I mean refined carbs and I fill up on veggies and beans.

I made a yummy tea this weekend really fancied a spag Bol with mushrooms and mixed beans and thought I could use my vile no carb noodles. Really didn’t fancy them so I made a Sheppard’s pie with no potatoes. Used carrot and Swede, mashed it and added cream and butter. It was amazing.

As I’ve been doing low fat for so many years I’m finding butter and cream totally amazing and so yummy.

I ran out of olive oil in the week and it was mega expensive no offers on so I ended up buying rapeseed oil is that ok on the WOE? I only use it for cooking rather than dressing salads and can’t say I’ve noticed a difference fast wise.

quackingduck222 · 11/12/2017 08:28

Taste wise not fast wise. Stupid autocorrect

purpleviolet1 · 11/12/2017 08:51

8.4lbs is a massive achievement!!

peachypips · 11/12/2017 09:25

Hi all- haven’t abandoned things/the thread but have had a heavy eating week and same this week. Gone totally haywire but will have two fasts next week in the lead up to Christmas and then back on it in Jan.

Still think this is the best WOE I’ve ever done. So easy to get back into it too.

I’ll read the full thread later to catch up on your antics.

TheMShip · 11/12/2017 10:23

Not abandoned here either, sticking with my 6:1 maintenance for the time being. It's working; quite pleased that I've hovered around 13st 4 for a few weeks without any effort or MFP. I'll be back on thread properly in the new year to continue towards my 12st goal.

Ta1kinPeace · 11/12/2017 12:04

purple
If you do end up choosing a takeaway, pick something with a set vegetarian meal
(chinese, indian, vietnamese, thai, greek all do that)
as then the food is much less calorie filled
and the portions in a set meal will leave you replete but not stuffed
and you'll save money as you will not over order

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2017 20:30

Well done on your SV, duck Great restart
Now concentrate on building sustainable good habits for the longterm

On any WOE that concentrates on health, whether 5:2 / Mediteranean / low carb or whatever, cold-pressed olive oil is recommended in preference to any vegetable oil or grain oil.
There is a large body of evidence that olive oil has significant health benefits and it is one of the cornerstones of the Mediterranean diet.

I'd recommend say less meat or wine, to save money for olive oil.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2017 20:33

peachy That's fine to have a couple of fasts over the holiday, both to help reduce gain and also to keep in the fasting swing

Mship That's excellent for the longterm that you can maintain on 6:1

OP posts: