5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

well done yo all who fasted yesterday! i am proud to stay i stick to 500 cals!!

woke up through the night lots thou/ is it a fast day thing

Morning all. I've rejoined the thread, fallen off the wagon for a bit and then rejoined again more times than I care to remember in the past year, but I'm 3 FDs in and trying really hard this time.
Had dhal soup and protein pancakes last night, off to the gym in a bit for some weights.
Yesterday was a struggle but I got there in the end! I always find FD#2 much the easier.

Fast Day here today too

Breakfast the day after a FD always tastes extra lovely.

Hello all. Popping my head back in yet again. Lost well doing 5:2 beginning of last year, then piled it all back on when I went back to work after mat leave. Had a couple of false starts earlier this year owing to illness and general life crap, and gained and lost the same few pounds over and over for a few months. Finally started back properly a month ago, but weight loss has been slooooow despite Mfp-ing all Fds and nfds (lost 2 lb the first week, but just 0.5-1 lb for the rest). Think my current weight is a bit of a natural sticking point for me, so wonder if a 4:3 would kick things off again? Would I just do it for a week then back to 5:2? I lost really easily on 5:2 last time, but I was still bf-ing my then 10-month old, and I'm guessing that helped. Any tips greatly appreciated!

Yes it does, Ouch. I had a small avocado, two oat cakes with a little homemade jam, and a scrambled egg.

jengles I guess your rate of loss will depend a lot on where your weight is now? I think if you're under BMI 25 it's quite hard to lose more than 1lb/week. I've had a couple of sticking points so far and have just kept going with regular 5:2, took about 3-4 weeks each time to get past.

I am doing a 4:3 this week but partly just to see what it's like. Today is a little difficult; I get a bit nauseous when I'm anxious and I have a high pressure event at work this afternoon, plus a co-worker off sick with D&V which just makes me feel more stressed. I really hate D&V bugs; I'm mildly emetophobic.

Poor Mship hope today goes well

Good luck on your FD, DrK, bug, Mship and all the Tuesday fasters

Good luck with your event today, Mship
Your patience got you through your set points / plateaus.
Patience & persistence are great qualities.

DrK It's fine to weigh every 4 weeks say if you find the scales stressful and just go on clothes fit in the interim.
However, apologise to your poor bod for calling it fat.
If you stay on track most of the time, then the loss mounts up over the weeks and you can really see the difference.
How about breaking up your goal into say 5 lb or 5kg steps, with a huge cheer from everyone if you drop down into a lower BMI class.

And do give yourself some TLC and non-food treats, e.g. new book, film, nail polish, hairdo, facemask, craft / gym class

I hope your NFD breakfast was delicious, ouch

Welcome back, confused, jengles

jengles Your bod has been through a lot of changes over the last year or so - including hormonal - and is now adapting to working plus no BF
So, not surprising if loss is slower.
Also, the longer you have been overweight, or the more times you have returned to that weight, the more likely it is that you are building insulin resistance - this hinders weight loss and keeps trying to return to a higher set point

Fasting helps reduce insulin resistance and eventually to lower the set point, but most folk often have to examine what they eat, not just how much or when.
So, maybe work on making your intake more nutritious, cutting down on heavily processed junk and excess lcohol.

5:2 / 4:3
1lb weekly is fairly standard on 5:2 unless you have lot to lose. If you are within healthy BMI already it can be much slower.
Theoretically, 4:3 should boost loss.
However, some folk find with 4:3 that they eat more on NFDs, or binge more often, or even crash totally off track
If you feel reasonably confident, I suggest you try 2 weeks of 4:3. However, if you feel too stressed or get off track, then return immediately to 5:2

confused For successful weight management and less stress, try to work on your NFDs and develop better longterm habits, not just in the weight loss phase
in particular iirc, keep alcohol within NHS guidelines and be moderate wrt sugary / junk savoury treats too.
You need a maintenance plan once you reach goal, so that all your hard work isn't wasted

For everyone, the recommendations for NFDs - and later for maintenance - are to keep booze & other treats within 20% of TDEE, preferably around 10%.
That's SOP for all WOLs and fasting is no different in that respect - IF works well, IFOC (Intermittent Fasting on Crap) not so well.

I think for all of us here, it's tempting to eat as we did in our teens - i.e. like a Labrador -
but sadly the days are long gone when we could get away with such habits.

I've made a few changes to my exercise regime and diet recently - started on a proper, progressive weightlifting programme which has already delivered on increasing my strength.
I'm aiming for 1.5-2g protein per kilo of body weight and usually succeeding in that. I am noticeably more defined...and no lighter!
Social life still busy but not as crazy as before. Usually have no trouble keeping withing weekly alcohol limits. Alway have a minimum of 4 days alcohol free.
I've also been splitting my exercise into weights days and cardio days which I am enjoying but have no idea if it's beneficial (except that it is definitely helping me to focus a lot better on weights).

Thanks Mship and BCF

BCF, that makes a lot of sense, and although my nfd cals have been okay, I could probs make those cals a bit healthier/more nutritious! The amount of cake, biscuits and chocolate at work is ridiculous (perils of working upstairs from m&s), and although I've reduced how much of it I eat, and Mfp the rest, there's still room for improvement without depriving myself. I don't drink much alcohol, mainly as my tdee is only about 1600 cals (I'm short and sedentary), so a glass here or there takes a relatively sizeable chunk of that.

I have about 1-1.5 stone to lose - bmi is currently 25.1 so just a fraction off 'normal'. Will give 5:2 a couple more weeks, as am reluctant to do 4:3

You're right BCF I shouldn't say mean things about my poor bid. But it's really getting me down it's been creeping up over the years and it's really hard to see myself as an overweight me. I have bursts of motivation but life keeps getting in the way.

Ok I have discovered a game changer. 2 egg plain omelette for FD lunch - except not so plain as I cooked it in chilli infused olive oil and, wow, what a difference. Yum, yum, yum...

Oh good news hlbug
I've caved and eaten a tuna salad (tuna, leaves, scallions, vinegar and pepper) plus marmite rice cakes. So that's about 250 calories I think. Bit of a pain because my supper was to be homemade bean stew which I think is probably a bit over 250

DrK that's a really healthy lunch. If you're struggling on 500, maybe give yourself a break and allow 800. It'll mean weight loss is slower, but what really matters is if you can actually do the WOL. I can't do 500, personally, I get dizzy and sick.

HL I love me an omelette. Yum.

confused well done on the weight lifting!

I'm feeling miles better this afternoon; the event is going swimmingly and we've only got 40 minutes to go. I will reward myself tonight with the new release of preview chapters from a book I really want to read.

Good fast day yesterday, stuck to 500. I am doing 4:3 here jengles - it's ok so far but a bit tough. I'm on my second week. I want to lose weight a bit more quickly as I get disheartened otherwise. I suit a short sharp shock approach!

Hello other new people!

Like the phrase from above 'patience and perseverance are good qualities'

I've had my bean stew and honestly just want to go to bed now.
I can cope with feeling hungry if I'm watching tv in bed or having a swim or being busy with certain things but if the "conditions " aren't right then I could chew my own arm off

DrK Drink a glass of water, then clean your teeth,

It is a good psychological nudge, which reduces the temptation to eat again and dirty your teeth
An early night is always a good idea, especially on FDs, to boost the fasting benefits.
Lack of sleep / disrupted sleep is one of the factors in weight loss for many of us

I agree with Mship that if anyone finds FDs tough, then set them at a level you find sustainable, whether that be 600/700/800 cals - but no junk, only add nutritious food, just as you did today.

People often find once they have established a fasting routine that they can gradually bring the FDs down towards 500/600

bug I also love garlic gloves with scrambled eggs / omelette. I fry the garlic first in a little olive oil.

Jengles Your rate of loss is not bad for basically at healthy BMI.
If you say you can tweak your type of food reasonably easy, then that's the way to go, sticking with 5:2
Your work environment does sound challenging wrt sugary crap - maybe 2:5 them, i.e. only have them on 2 NFDs per week; the other days absolute zero.

Cakes, biscuits, all that sweet junk, including lattes are absolute calorie bombs, easily 500 calms a pop
Sugary treats are also not filling, for the amount of calories.
Even worse, as with alcohol, the excess calories of this type of food are very easy for the bod to convert into fat and these are preferentially stored around your middle

Well done, peachy
Try to relax and remember that weight loss and weight management is what you do over the long term, your WOL
That weight gain probably didn't happen just over a couple of months, so your bod needs time to get rid of it. Be nice to it; it's a good bod.

If you start glaring at the poor innocent scales, instead chant "patience and perseverance "

Thanks BCF done it. Very helpful

Finishing another b2b here. I've just had cauliflower steaks for dinner and they were gorgeous!

Back to back sounds impressive. But wtf is a cauliflower steak?

Well done on your b2b, melanie but pleeeease tell us what cauliflower steaks are [nosy]
Any tasty new veg dish, whether side or main, is always useful

Well done on some great fd achievements today! I echo BCF Melanie - please tell us was cauliflower steaks are! I'm very intrigued!!

Definitely a nfd here and think I hate more than I should have - nothing really naughty just too much! I've just been so hungry for some reason. Will restrain myself tomorrow as really would like this 6:1 maintenance to work and don't think it will if nfds are all like today. I've come to realise it's all about balance though so I'm not panicking - yet!!

The voice of common sense speaks! I know I need to see this as a way of life. I really struggle with it though! I struggle if I don't get quick results.

Also want to know what a cauli steak is...

FD tmrw. Good luck Wed fasters and well done Tues ones!