5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on another SV, bug Nearly at that brilliant landmark

Welcome, Tiddles, head

Tiddles Unless you are already fairly lean - within healthy BMI - that sounds like you are eating back the FD deficit on NFDs, i.e. on NFdDs eating more than your body burns.
Basically, FDs are "diet days", NFDs are "maintenance days"

I recommend you calculate TDEE, which is the rough daily average #calories to aim for over the 5 NFDs: Calc TDEE

If you are an exerciser, then Mosely reommends in this calculation using one activity level lower than you think

Most folk generally don't need to mfp, but I suggest to those losing rather slowly that they just mfp for 1 week, as a reality check on NFDs

• it helps highlight issues with portion size, treats / calorie bombs etc

Head If you are EBF, you should do 1,000 cal FDs, to ensure your body, and hence your milk, is packed with all the nutrients you both need.
Once you move to mixed feeding, after say 6 months, you can optionally reduce gradually to 700 cal FDs, if you feel ready.
Many women have successfully lost weight on 5:2 while BFing, including tandem feeding. You just need to use your extra FD` allowance

If loss is slow, check NFDs as described above for Tiddles

Well done, bug! You're inspiring!

My second FD of the week today. It's going well so far. I re-calculated my TDEE as 1884 (down from 1923 at 14st), as I figure every half stone I should re-do it. It hasn't been an issue so far, but I suspect it will become more challenging as I get closer to my goal. I'm struggling a little with MFP'ing my NFDs but I know I need to keep it up, I need the accountability still.

Hi all. FD no 3 here- hardest I've done so far. Really hungry!!
Lunch:
Appetiser: Glass of water
Starter: Bovril
Main: Apple with a side of water
Dessert: Chewing gum
Then a cup of tea. With a side of water.

Away for the weekend at a uni reunion so not sure how that's going to go down!

peachy in future, I recommend you don't have fruit on its own, but only with protein or fat
The high GI spikes blood sugar and soon increases hunger

e.g. for the same calories, a boiled egg would keep you fuller, or a small tin of tuna (in brine) / kidney beans, small tomato, lettuce & lemon juice

Good luck on your FD and to any other Thursday fasters

oops, Friday - this often happens when I have a week off !

Thanks for the tip- the apple just fell into my mouth.

Just stupidly weighed myself. Have lost nothing at all so far. I'm hoping it's the fact that I weighed myself later in the day. Panicking.

peachy almost certainly because it's later in the day. Try tomorrow first thing after the loo and before breakfast.

Lol Peachy Love your fd menu.
Already thinking about which days to allocate as FDs next week. Also keen to not eat and drink my own bodyweight over the weekend.

well i can't believe how much this way of eating is affecting my non fast days

i thought i'd be ravenous waking up yesterday but had my granola and yogurt and left half of it- my reason i was not really into it and didn't feel hungry so why waste the calories?

had an orange and tomatoes and corgueet pieces at lunch with a little mackerel pieces and 3 crisp breads - i forgot my cheese but didn't mind

then i had half a bar (i actually shared it round) of yorkie choc before hitting the gym for a hard session

then i needed tea before going out so i had 1 (unheard of) pitta with tuna mayo

went out had 2 non creamy cocktails a latte and 2 mixer and diet cokes which is a scratch on my usual monthly binge

Woo Saturday SV! Two fasts managed and I’m down 1lb for the week

Feels good to be back on track. 16lb since mid July but quite a few to go!

Posted too soon. Peachy your menu made me laugh, water is an excellent side - if I’m pushing the boat out I have ice too

And I find the same on NFDs 1morerep. I wouldn’t have managed to be quite as self restrained as you on the cocktails though!

Due to DH's manflu we didn't do a FD yesterday, and I'm not doing one today as a good friend is coming for dinner and a glass or two of wine. I'll do M/W/F Next week instead. Dinner will be a healthy veg packed chicken casserole. It suddenly feels very wintery.

Well done on your SV, Fire

1more, Fire Some folk do find that 5:2 is an automatic reset of appetite,
plus often a lust for veg & less processed food, a reduced interest in less healthy habits

So they don't deliberately "deprive" themselves on NFDs, but naturally eat only what their body needs

• that's learning to listen to your bod, instead of to all the ads & social pressure to consume more, more ...

Hearty stews & casseroles hit the spot, ouch
Easy to add more veg, lentils, beans which boost both health and wallet, as it stretches out the dish
I love lots of garlic cloves < vampires beware > which are packed with antioxidants

peachy I'd expect loss to slow, or even plateau for a while, as your body consolidates the big loss you've had from BSD

However do try to avoid jumping on the scales too often - even without dieting, weight naturally fluctuates a couple of lb during the day and from day to day
That's due to differing amounts of undigested food (complete digestion can take 24 hrs+), fluctuations in retained water, hormonal swings etc

Contra-intuition, you need to drink more water, to help avoid retaining excess
Also to help burn fat more readily

Weigh consistently:

• First thing in the morning after 2nd FD every 1-4 weeks, naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.
• Same scales, always in the same position on a level, hard floor - not carpet.
• (for digital) Switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on, so they have time to zero properly
• Step on, no jumping; keep still & don't shift your balance or lean to one side If weight seems inconsistent, replace batteries

It's fine to weigh daily if you prefer, but don't get hung up on trying to understand daily blips

Even weekly - the average 1lb loss on 5:2 can easily be hidden by a temporary swing in retained water

It's best to look at the trend over the weeks, which should be downwards

i am having a very hungry day today - i'm trying not to obsess though as ill make up for it the rest of the time and the gym session was one of the hardest i've ever done today

I'm having my usual Saturday FD:
fasted training this afternoon - short lifting session, then HIT spin - and I've just finished my supper:
tuna & avocado, mixed salad, peanuts, then Greek yoghurt & raspberries. Yum

I'll do fasted morning training tomorrow, then a good lunch

i couldn't imagine a fast day on a saturday that is hard core

I tried this about 3 years ago, when I realised weekends were sabotaging my weight loss.
Now it's my usual WOL
Fits in well, because it frees up time for me to run all the errands, do washing , shopping and still manage 1-2 hrs gym

Following your lead I'm going to try a make a weekend mini FD of 1000 kcal a regular thing too. I've felt much better the last few times I've managed it. Today was a family lunch out so I'll aim for my mini day tomorrow - I've got such a busy day planned it should be manageable though.

That's a good idea, bug
Also, I occasionally move my FD to Sunday if I have something on. 5:2 is great for flexibility, to fit in with life.

Well done on some great svs! I've not been on for a few days and there's lots been going on!

Peachy - I find weighing any more than weekly is really demoralising. You see so many ups and downs and it's hard to know where you actually are. I stick to weighing just once a week after the second fd and that seems to work for me.

I'm trying to decide what to do this week - whether to move to 6:1 maintenance and just do one Monday fd or whether to do a week or so more of full 5:2. I'm feeling really nervous about dropping to 6:1 as really don't want to undo the good work but equally don't want to lose anymore (well, other than the 1lb that would get me to goal!) Thoughts welcome!

is it not worth just getting to goal first? i think getting that will be such a mental high (well it would for me anyway but ive got 18lbs to go lol!

i made myself do a home work out today and stuck to a 1200 calorie intake without substituting my fitness

i'm really trying as i keep getting glimpses of myself and not liking what i'm seeing. i'm also doing a lot more sport for therapeutic reasons as ive recently been diagnosed with adhd so now i understand why excersize makes me feel so much better

fast day for me tomoz she ive meal prepped spicy butternut and lentil soup!

That's my thinking on getting to goal 1morerep! It was dh telling me not to lose any more and a suggestion from our guru BCF that made me wonder whether I should switch to maintenance at this point. Hmmmmm!

Well done on your workout and your meal plan for tomorrow's fd sounds yum!!