5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Kitchen closed on 900 cal because I went for venison sausages instead of fish. Venison sausage, very small Yorkshire pudding, home made onion gravy, swede mash and broccoli for just under 500 cal (everything weighed!) and I'm stuffed :)

iirc, peachy You've been on the BSD.
Hence progress is likely to be much slower on 4:3 or 5:2, but that is fine - you can't stay on a VLCD for ever

Lovely to hear all the progress and SVs here

hi all i'm getting ready for fast day number 2 tomorrow- going to do a gym session mid day to take some time up- ive not eaten since lunch today should i eat something now (not hungry as a huge lunch)

On my second FD of the week and my period has arrived. Guessing that might mean no weight loss tomorrow.

Today's food was boring. Two soft boiled eggs and a piece of toast then a salad of tuna, carrots, cucumber, cherry tomatoes and avocado. Reasonably healthy but it needed more flavour.

Hope others are having a good FD today.

Checking in. Thank you for your encouragement all! Hearing success stories is very helpful.

I so don't want this weight loss to be slow! I feel like I've been on some form of diet for a decade and I'm so tired of it. Moan over. I want this to be the last time and my woe forever.

Goldfish - I have a similar goal- 10 stone but lower if it happens.

All in at 550 cals with a 5k run. Looking forward to some substance tomorrow!

Thanks for your support

But the beauty of it is that for most of the week you can totally forget that you're 'on a diet', which makes it soooo easy to stick to :)

Hi. FD today. I think I finished under 500 cals.
Tricky at times but the encouragement from all your success stories is spurring me on.
Oh my homemade beetroot and red cabbage soup was utterly vile so I had a salad instead.
looking forward to my coconut porridge tomorrow for breakfast.

I find I can do a back to back if im in the zone, make sure there's no temptations around ( gave my apple pies to work colleagues), and have something tasty lined up. Good additions to salads to add flavour are pickles, capers, anchovies, or a dressing made of mustard and cider vinegar. Or sushi ginger slices!

Good tips melanie

1more Good habits for weight loss and for maintenance,ater;
If you are not hungry, don't eat
When you are eating and you are satisfied - not stuffed - stop eating

crocus On salads, I have balsamic vinegar for great flavour and also because vinegar helps slow digestion and keep you fuller for longer.
For egg with toast, a little dijon mustard adds flavour BUT look at the label and get one without any added sugar

On NFDs too, I now only use the reduced sugar ketchup, e.g. from Heinz, or make your own (4:1 tomato puree : apple cider vinegar, plus salt, pepper, your choice of garlic, spices)

peachy Try to avoid the mindset of wanting quick loss so that you can stop dieting

• because weight loss on any WOE will slow as you approach goal

AND no diet "fixes" weight forever - you will need a maintenance plan.
For life.
This won't be quite the same as your "old" way of eating & drinking - at least not 7 days per week - because your old ways are usually what put on the weight in the first place.

ntbo, Your goal weigh will require fewer calories to maintain than your heavier weight
i.e. probably lower amounts than you got used to consuming for many years

if you return to your old WOL, you'll return to your old weight & waist

Also, when someone has been significantly overweight a long time, they will have a lower TDEE than someone who is naturally that weight without dieting.
This is one reason why so many big losers regain quickly. The other reason is returning to their old ways.

This affect on TDEE is called "adaptive thermogenesis" and lasts at least one year, normally a few years before your TDEE gets back to average for your new weight.
e.g. someone who has lost 50lb+ will probably need to consume about 12% fewer calories than the theoretical TDEE for a year or so, in order to maintain

Don't worry, as you get near to goal, we'll suggest various maintenance plans
e.g. 6:1, or maintaining on 5:2 but eating more on FDs

We've recently had the earliest 5:2ers still maintaining and celebrating their 5 years of being at Happy Weight

The week could have gone better, derailed by very busy alcoholic Sunday and slight hangover Monday. At least no weight gain, which I'm counting as a SV.

FD today. Have a good Thursday everyone!

Great work everyone!!

SV here this morning. Weighed in at 9st8 - just 1lb of my target!

Starting to think about maintenance now. I'm quite apprehensive about slipping back into old habits. I think I'll go for one 6:1 and see how I get on. Planning a couple more weeks of 5:2 yet though - although dh has told me he doesn't want me to lose any more!

Well done on your SV, Goldfinch
As you've lost the last few lb quite quickly really, I agree it is time to try a couple of weeks on 6:1

Wow well done on nearly reaching your target Gold! That must feel good.

I think what I meant above is that I'm happy to stay on this woe forever as long as it actually works. I get quite discouraged though when it's slow or I maintain for a few weeks.
I have a mood disorder and so am on medication that doesn't help with weight loss, so I am looking in the short term to lose weight and in the long term to prevent medication induced weight gain.

Planning to stick it out for the duration if it works!

Hi, Just checking in. Had a fast day yesterday and plan on another tomorrow. Lost 2lbs in 3 weeks which isn't as much as I had hoped but I'll keep at it.
Does anyone else get headaches on fast days? I did yesterday, could be entirely unrelated to fasting but I did wonder if it was sugar withdrawal?

lisam FD headaches are usually caused by

either insufficient water - you have less water from the reduced food volume
or insufficient salt intake - due to lots of water accompanying much reduced salt / food intake.

To avoid headaches:

• Start each FD with a glass of water and keep drinking. Aim for 2l of water, plus optionally tea, coffee Plenty of water is also essential for efficient fat-burning

Don't have more than 1 glass / 330ml can of fizz, because this doesn't hydrate well and may causes headaches in some folk (fizz also has sodium benzoate, which everyone should limit)

• Replenish salt & other minerals by glugging a teasp Marmite (10 cals), say mid-morning and afternoon. This also boosts B vits Alternatively, a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (also 10 cals)

hello all well fast day number 2 was easy! ive had 2 79 cal soups and an orange and half a ready made packer rice if that as i wasn't hungry!

FD finished here too. Ending on about 575 kcal... which is more than normal for me, but a couple of mid week glasses of wine last night did not set me up for a good start this morning I don't really drink much anymore, and had an awful nights sleep as a result. Looking forward to maximising FD by settling in for an early night tonight.

Well done on nailing your FD, 1more, bug Night, night

SV here this morning, woohoo! Another 2ish pounds off and now at 11st 5 pound - which is only 1 pound away from my next mini goal (11st 4) and what I consider my pre-baby weight to be

A Happy Friday indeed!

Hi. I have been following this for 3 weeks. Have done 7 fast days in that time. Have stuck to it really well and mostly been around 500 cals. Have lost around 2lbs in that time. Was hoping it would be more. Saw a comment on another thread that a lady didn't lose anything in the first 4 weeks, then it started to drop more quickly. Has anyone else seen this or do I need to eat much less on nfd's?

Hello. Please can I join?

Have been 5:2ing on and off for about 2 months but seriously need to get into it again now. Am 7 months through my 12 month mat leave and promised myself I'd be slim for starting back at work! Am EBF the baby but have been sticking to 500 cal fasts - no effect on supply I've notice. However maybe I should consider 600-700 day fasts to make it less tough!!

I have approx 10kgs to lose.

Congrats SG and thanks for the salad suggestions.

I was down 1 lb this week, which I'm taking as a positive since the weigh in was at the start of my period. 13 lbs to go but I think it's going to be slow in coming off.

It's a NFD today and I made some delicious chia pudding with Oatley chocolate milk. It's my new obsession. I'm working from home today and the benefit is being able to have a nicer lunch.