5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

My weigh in day today, looking at my weight app this week must of been another restart as I gained last week.

Anyway I’ve lost 4.8 lbs and I can’t quite believe it.

Feeling pleased that my jeans are not so restrictive now. Hoping for another good week.

Anyone else really feeling the cold? I’ve been utterly freezing lately.

morning all fasters and non fasters

it’s fast day for me today which is needed after a day of being fed at the milatry base where my dp works- there was lots of curry to be eaten yesterday

quacking I'm cold! Double mitts and gloves on my bike this morning.

I'm fasting today, quite happy to be back at it after being away.

@quackingduck222 that’s great!!!

I randomly weighed myself this morning and put some weight on i like weighing every couple days as it spurs me on to keep going - but I need to accept that it might sometimes be a gain and not let that get me down !

Brilliant weekend NSV, bug

Well done on your SV, duck

purple and anyone else who weighs frequently:
Ignore weight blips - they are temporary and meaningless,
Weight for many people varies naturally a couple of lb, even day to day.
This is NOT bodyfat; it is due to undigested food and / or retained water due to hormonal swings and / or extra carbs the previous day or so

So, best to monitor weight on the morning after FD2 and even then, look at the trend over at least 2 weeks

• if you average 1lb weekly fat loss, this can easily be disguised by 2lb retained water one week

Daily weigh-ins are fine; just don't take them seriously.
Don't get discouraged or do your head in trying to figure out blips

Thanks everyone.

Mship is that a new thing for you being cold?

I wore my brand new super thick coat today, bought it last year but didn’t wear it as it wasn’t that cold. I’m greatful today. Someone said I looked like a tit in my hat scarf and gloves as it wasn’t cold enough apparently. Well at least I was a warm tit

I weigh daily as I like to see what’s going on and it does spur me on but I only record my weight once a week. I like Monday’s as it keeps me focused on a weekend.

quacking I'm usually cold on fast days, but not otherwise except in the office since the weather changed. There are heating system "issues" in in the two large open plan areas that have most of us working in coats and hats.

Another cold one here - especially on FDs! I've been freezing all day today (despite nfd) and am now sitting in front of a roaring fire - lush, just wish I didn't have to go out and pick dd up from guides at 9pm!! Brrrrr!!!

Kitchen closed, roughly 800kcal FD. Pleased with that. Soup for lunch, gallons of tea, stuffed peppers and salad for dinner.

Ok so it’s not just me that’s a relief.

I noticed a couple of weeks ago being cold on a FD but this has been ongoing since Friday night. Friday was a FD funnily enough.

Noticing it most in my feet, I’ve been a sufferer of hot feet for about 10 years as soon as I come in the house my socks come off. I always stick them out the duvet at night. But they are like ice now.

I’m armed tonight with fleecy pjs and fleece slippers and will wear them in bed if it needs must. I may have to go and buy a hot water bottle tomorrow.

I’m really hoping this settled down as the way I’ve been feeling today I was quite tempted to stop trying to loose any more.

Question for you. Will having milk in my morning tea and coffee ruin all the health benefits of a 16:8 fast? I don't eat till around 2 or 3pm on a fast day so only calories I have before this are from the milk. I can't cope with black tea and coffee...

Rosie
If I cannot have mug after mug of white tea on a fast day I'm nadgered.
So I allow 50 of my calories to be in the milk
and can then merrily go without solid food for ages.

Feeling cold on fast days
Yup, perfectly normal.
Its your body using up some of its store of calories
put on a jumper and or stay active

Long time lurker. Long time admirer of so many posters on this group. Medium term 5:2er and just decided I needed to join in!

Fast day today - really good. Got by on gallons of white tea until 7pm (Ta1kinPeece - I am the same, can run off tea for most of a FD).

Had beans on toast, a big bunch of grapes and more tea for supper.

Love love love the way FDs (and this WOE generally) make me feel - so much more energy, less sluggish, less grumpy.

Haven't lost much weight yet - four weeks into a 5:2 stint - I think I overeat way above TDEE at weekends due to wine and snacks. But I am just so happy with the NSV side of things that I'm going to stick at it.

Kitchen closed...well, maybe just one more tea....

Thanks Ta1kin Peece but does the milk mean you are breaking the fast, thereby losing the benefits of a fast in terms of health? Or too few calories to matter?

Rosie
I've always taken it as too few calories to matter.
The main point of the fasting - or gaps between eating - is to allow your digestion to hoover into the corners
10 calories of milk every couple of hours is not enough to kick the digestion back into full action

Cups of miso soup are a good alternative for those who want to control caffeine
( 1 teaspoon miso paste, 1 teaspoon chopped chives into a cup of boiling water)

Welcome, handmini
Good to hear you enjoy this WOE
Yes, sounds like you are eating & drinking back all / most of the FD deficit at the weekends - but at least you know you can maintain happily on 5:2 longterm

Weight & Health tip
I suggest one change, which talkinpeace first discovered:

NO snacking / grazing, ever

Snacks keep insulin raised over the whole day and hinder fat-burning.
Longterm, this tends to be detrimental to your health, increasing the risks of certain diseases & chronic conditions: T2, BP, kidney function, Alzheimers ...

Human beings evolved with a 24-hour cycle that is fasting dominant, which increased "autophagy"

• the hoovering around the corners tip mentioned, in which old & less healthy cells are removed, to make way for new ones.

However, the onset of the snacking culture have completely changed that cycle to insulin-dominant, see graphs

Even "healthy" snacks like raw veg or fruit raise insulin; sweet / junky snacks make it spike
If you want "treats", lattes, alcohol, even fruit - then have them as part of your meals.

For weight and health, try to have no more than 4 "calorie-consumption occasions" per day (personally, as a longterm 5:2er, I have 1-3 meals )

Rosie My advice is to have tea / coffee if this is necessary to make fasting sustainable for you
Bovril or miso would be better if that works for you - because of their lower GI.

For the 16-hr fasting period within 16:8

• Unsweetened almond milk has only about 4 cals per 25 ml dollop, so it's a great substitute for cows' milk. Healthy too.

• Avoid added sugar if you can. Also NO fruit in those 16 hrs - that really spikes insulin.

• Up to 40 cals total within 16 hours didn't raise insulin for a bodybuilder like Martin Berkhan, so I'd say 30 cals total for the average woman. However, sustainability is more important than sticking to that.

• tip: Measure out and calorie count in advance your milk for the 16 hours and put it in a separate pot - but almond milk is so low cal I wouldn't bother

Well, obviously I am beyond hope unless I check into rehab 😭.
Fine until Sunday afternoon when I polished off too much Chablis then CBA with my fd yesterday and had 2 glasses with supper. So pissed off with myself. Anyway, back on it today with a fd (fingers crossed)
Well done to all of you, it's great to hear your positive accounts of IF.

drK I suggest first aim is to nail the 2 FDs every week, so at least your liver has 2 days rest.
FDs are easier if you don't have a sore head, so try to stay within NHS limits the day before.

Those 2 steps would be a major benefit - most of us can't change lifestyle all at once

Consider your triggers for drinking and work on alternatives :

• nibbling - then remember no snacks or grazing+
• boredom - press-ups & squats ! - or use the alcohol money for other activities: cinema, theatre etc
• remember the tip of cleaning your teeth thoroughly, whenever you feel the urge for wine - the fresh taste can change the attraction

Morning!

FD here and a super busy day with work (teacher) then 3hour course in the evening so hopefully will be busy and not notice.

I have tea with milk as i need it (try to minit to 3 cups) on FD ad keeps me going and therefore worth it.

Good luck to other fasters today.

DrK - don’t beat yourself up about it, we’re all human and we all make mistakes.

This week is a fresh week and you will do great.

Hello MotherOfFour - it’s great that you and your DH are doing it together.

It is hard at first but when your body gets used to it it really does become a way of life. Plus when the lbs star rolling off it does inspire you to continue.

I’m doing a FD today to get it out the way.

We ate out last night I’d pre picked my meal before hand and decided I was having a dessert but know that’s my treat gone for this week. But I can cope with that.

Good luck to the FDers today

Thanks quacking
Welcome motheroffour. Yes, it's easier with some distractions. But as you have so little to lose Bigchoc might well have some encouraging advice for you.
Good luck fellow fasters