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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
OuchBollocks · 09/11/2017 08:08

Sort of a fast-lite in action today. I'm not counting calories but I'll have no breakfast, egg and mushroom for lunch, then a chop and lots of veg for dinner. Really really need to get back at it.

HLBug · 09/11/2017 09:16

FD for me today as well

peachypips · 09/11/2017 11:01

Hi all. Successful FD yesterday. I like Thurs as I've got a few days off fasting at TDEE. Had a small amount of oats with nuts for breakfast.

quacking - I found that exact thing with Slimming World! I didn't eat much before but then was told to stuff myself with free food, which has led to bingeing habits. So so bad.

Good luck other fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2017 11:29

Well done on your SV, Goldfinch

peachy I agree that learning to stuff yourself is learning a bad habit - few people stick to stuffing themselves only with carrots all their life.
Also, "free food" is misleading: no food or drink, that contains calories, burns all those calories during digestion

OP posts:
Collectorofcookbooks · 09/11/2017 11:32

Second Fast Day for me. Have been super good and logged everything with MFP since Monday - normally I run out of inspiration about day 3! MFP does NOT like me fasting, I got told off on Monday for not eating enough - I guess I just ignore that?

There are still cakes in the office and I am still ignoring them Grin but a huge victory for me - I really slumped on Tuesday afternoon, had half a Twirl, put the rest in a drawer, and it's still there!

Was having my boiled egg and smoked salmon this morning and DH said to me 'That's the strangest fast I've ever seen - what's for dinner?!'

Just ordered a new dress for a do next Tuesday. Got it in a 14 rather than a 16 as I am determined it will still fit when I've lost this stubborn two stone! Strangely excited about getting on the scales tomorrow morning. As I was driving to work this morning I could almost feel my hip bones against the seat belt for the first time in years. A girl can dream, right?!

Bestbees · 09/11/2017 11:36

Well done goldfinch! 9.7 is my goal too. Got to 9.8 last year and then screwed up maintainance!

purpleviolet1 · 09/11/2017 12:24

NFD here today.

BCF , I remember you saying to ease into 5:2 given my health history so to have FD with 700-1000 cals.

I managed a FD the other day of approx 550 calories. I was really pleased but remembering what you said that it’s better to nail more 700-1000 cal days rather than push myself for 500 days and then binge.

Would it be ok to do a mixture so let’s say some of each of the following: NFD 1500-1600 calories, FD 500 calories, Mini FD 700-1000 calories. How many of each would be a good combination?

Ta1kinPeece · 09/11/2017 14:05

collector
MFP does indeed have kittens at fast days. Ignore it and look at the weekly average
and then the monthly average
and then the yearly average
as they are what really matters Smile

Catsrus · 09/11/2017 15:06

Purple, I’d honestly say the best combination is the one that works for you ! I know I can’t do a “proper” FD on days when I’m based at home - id save low cal FDs for those days I was out and about and busy. When I was still working I worked two days a week in a different location - they were my low cal FDs. Since retiring I took my two days when I did my hobby to use as FDs, low cal if I needed it. I’m actually looking forward to starting again in the new year Smile

I’ve got a friend who does the same hobby and is my fasting buddy, but to my mind she treats it too much like a diet and not a new way of eating. If she “falls off the waggon” she binges and is then wracked with guilt. For me, the eureka moment was that this was a set of tools for life, I will always fast, and that’s ok, it’s actually quite pleasant - as is the knowledge that yes, I can have a double scoop of white choc and pumpkin & chestnut ice cream if I want, still eat a healthy meal later, and it does not signal the “end” of anything! For me It’s not a diet, I’ll never have to diet again because I know how to eat and keep a sensible stable weight. I feel in control.

Oh - and not sure what other long term maintainers think about this, but I feel sure I actually eat far more than I ever did before, I do think my metabolism has changed.

purpleviolet1 · 09/11/2017 15:53

Thanks @Catsrus ! That’s great. I’m Muslim so I have fasted for years (in Ramadan) and always found it liberating in a way that I can’t really explain so I am happy that this can be a way of life for me.

I just need a guideline to aim for..

Ollivander84 · 09/11/2017 17:27

Pilates time. Again Grin

purpleviolet1 · 09/11/2017 20:05

I used to suffer from Candida a few years ago and only really get occasional bouts of thrush when I’m really overtired/ run down now. However I’m suffering from it now which is strange as I’ve been getting plenty sleep. Can a change to this WOL bring on some kind of detox?

BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2017 20:14

Purple I suggest you try 1 FD within 650 cals and 1-2 MiniFDs of up to 1000.
Always have at least 4 NFDs per week

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2017 20:22

cats Fasting has been shown to slightly increase metabolic rate, which basically means increasing TDEE

Dr Jason Fung (kidney / T2 specialist who treats patients mainly by fasting) says that fasting is the only way he knows to increase the "set point"
i.e. a previous weight to which your body tries to return

He says the main reason for regain on all diets is the body trying to return to a lower set point - via ramping up hunger and / or dialling back your metabolism.
Hence a higher set point means your metabolic rate and TDEE increase, compared to previous diets
(obviously if you have lost a few stone, your TDEE is probably lower than at that much higher weight, by definition)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2017 20:26

purple On NFDs, I recommend atm you eat up to your full TDEE - just concentrate on building your strength and healthy habits, e.g. plenty of water and veg.
However, if you are not hungry, stop eating, even if this means a below TDEE NFD..

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2017 20:32

I can't remember any fasters mentioning Candida imcreased
It could be a sign that you are rundown, or maybe you increased a trigger food - e.g. sugar / honey / agave, fruit juice, alcohol, mushrooms

OP posts:
HLBug · 09/11/2017 20:43

Kitchen closed at 580 kcals today. Happy enough with that. Off to visits old uni friends this weekend so goodness knows what will be in store...!

Bestbees · 09/11/2017 20:53

Good fast here. Couple of mushrooms with marmite at lunchtime. Dinner of salmon and green veg. 40 length swim and ready for bed!

Well done HLBug!

purpleviolet1 · 09/11/2017 21:05

Thanks BCF.. no trigger foods I’m aware of. Will keep an eye.

Been getting early nights all week Grin hitting the sack now

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 10/11/2017 07:02

Been trying proper press ups and OMG my abs . I couldn't turn over in bed the other night 😂

Bestbees · 10/11/2017 07:02

Weighed today at seem to be 7lb down! Assume that is because last weeks weigh in was day before period started. Still pretty epic and a great confidence booster! Grin

Bestbees · 10/11/2017 07:03

DrK I really struggle with press ups but know they are so good for u. Maybe that can be my december challenge? Like 10 a day and the adding (12 on the second?)

BigChocFrenzy · 10/11/2017 07:40

Well done on good FDs, bug bestbees

That's a healthy NSV for good sleep habits, purple

Congrats on your SV, bestbees
People often feel down about totm gain blips (retained water).
However, that water is normally released on the FD following.
So if you avoid the totm munchies you can get the big bang of water release, plus your usual weekly loss that was being hidden by totm

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/11/2017 07:49

Well done on your pressups, DrK
Sore abs is an indicator that you are really working them - which is the key to good pressup form with straight back, rigid abs

I did 800 pressups at the gym (in umoteen sets !) the Christmas before last as their were no classes.
I stopped because my abs were getting sore, not my shoulders. It was only the abs that were tender the next couple of days - my shoulders were just a little stiff.

DrK, bestbees if you want to increase pressups, you may find it more doable to increase sessions by 1-3 pressups every 2 weeks
e.g. maybe you do 3 sets of 8 atm every other day, or 1 set every day
You could may one set a 9 and 2 days later make the 2nd set a 9, etc

Choose your own rate to increase - if it's too much, that can put you off, whereas if the last couple of pressups aren't tough, you're probably coasting and could ramp up a bit

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 10/11/2017 08:01

Bloody hell Best 7lbs is AMAZING. How long have you been doing 5:2 for?

That’s really interesting BCF as I’ve seen a few articles about other diets increasing the set point and basically the theory saying you will regain the weight you have lost plus some. It was SW, WW lighterlife and all those diets.

I’ve got another busy day today hopefully keep my mind off food.

Il probably do a FD either tomorrow or Sunday. Despite being good all week my stomach seems a bit larger today.