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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
peachypips · 31/10/2017 09:02

Feeling very down. Weighed myself this morning after a fast day and I'm back to the weight I started at.

It's not working for me currently as I've STS now for a good month. I think it's my NFDs. I think I must be eating back my calories but I'm doing three fast days a week which I thought would mitigate the weekends. Really disappointed. Sad

SingingGoldfinch · 31/10/2017 10:31

Oh Peachy - I know it's easy for me to say but try not to be too disheartened. I'm sure more knowledgeable people will be along soon but didn't want to read and run. It's strange that you've sts when you've been doing 3 FDs a week, but maybe that's making you more hungry on your nfds so you're eating more? Im not sure what the thinking is on 4:3 as opposed to 5:2 but I do know that there's lots of science to back up 5:2. One thought, do you use my fitness pal every day? If not, might be worth doing so you have a clear log? What sort of things are you eating on FDs - maybe we could help with some meal suggestions?

OuchBollocks · 31/10/2017 11:49

Have you been logging and weighing everything you eat on MFP? Could be an eye opener. Or maybe your body needs time to adjust from the shock of the BSD.

My FD today had been postponed - DH came downstairs at 5.30 and made me coffee and croissants Blush I think I'm jist too tired anyway, I would be super tetchy by bedtime.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2017 14:58

peachy That is either your NFDs, or you have a plateau after your BSD losses.
Don't worry, both are fixable.

It is perfectly possibly to sts or even to gain on EOD (Every Other Day) fasting if your NFDs are much higher than your FDs
This can be due to bingeing,
or too many treats (usually calorie bombs) - which includes alcohol -
or to unknowingly eating too much high-calorie food, e.g. some low carbers have the problem that their natural satiety from high fat is much higher than their TDEE.

Some folk who have been overweight for a long time have got used to eating far above TDEE
Hence they need to retrain their habits, using say mfp as training wheels for a while

Recommendation:

Calculate your TDEE, using sedentary or - if you are an exerciser - one exercise level than you think
mfp for at least one full week, noting absolutely everything
This means: don't change your eating or drinking habits

If you find you have a deficit of at least 2000 weekly, then it is a plateau - which just needs patience and persistence to crack
If not, mfp should have highlighted whether the issue is general portion control, or hidden calorie bombs, or too many treats

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2017 15:02

Also, if you exercise:

  • Never add anything back on FDs. The 500 is fixed, even if you think you have burned 800 (most people who think this, haven't)
  • On NFDs, never add back cals from a gadget or calculator - allow for exercise only via your TDEE
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2017 15:05

NFD today, but I'm eating at my fav tapas restaurant at 5:30
Hence water only until then
I enjoyed a 90 min Halloween spin special, fasted, followed by a lovely 30 minute walk in the sun to relax

Anyone else with Halloween plans ?

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 31/10/2017 15:35

Work Grin been on a day shift
Managed under 1000 cals yesterday for the first time (yay) and ate around 1300 today, all within 14:10

HLBug · 31/10/2017 15:59

I’ve not eaten yet today, but have had two coffees with milk. Been a busy day and not feeling at all hungry, yippee! Looking forward to dinner, although DS is convinced we’ll be having pumpkin pie for pudding...he’s going to be disappointed with just yoghurt I think!!

purpleviolet1 · 31/10/2017 20:09

I’m afraid my FD went totally pear shaped. Had some
Bad news (bereavement) and was also running around all day with dm taking her to hosp and then referred to another (said it would be easier if someone could take her than wait for ambulance transfer which would be hours) so basically I had 1.5 slices of Costco pizza and nearly 2 cans of coke. Horrendous I know.

purpleviolet1 · 31/10/2017 20:11

1441 calories

peachypips · 31/10/2017 20:37

Hi all,

Thanks for the support! Sorry for the whinge. Have smacked myself round the head and bucked up my ideas.

I don't drink so it's not alcohol- I think it's carbs and sugar on my NFDs. On the BSD I wasn't eating any and as soon as I transferred over onto the 5:2 I think I gave myself license to binge on both. I think for my progress I need to get back to low-carb and no sugar as this was really suiting me.

So my plan is to go back to the principles of the BSD again, with not too much cheese or nuts and adding 2 fast days of 500 cals. So I will eat my TDEE on NFDs through low carb low sugar (I will still eat lentils etc, but not grains, potatoes, and the like).
I'm hoping this will work!

I haven't been using MFP which has also contributed to it I think. I hate calorie counting so have resisted it, but need to get on with it.

Sorry to hear about your bereavement purple - I hope you are ok.

Well done Tues fasters.

HLBug · 31/10/2017 20:49

Sorry to hear you've had a tough day purple Flowers

peachypips · 31/10/2017 21:02

And how is your mum?

purpleviolet1 · 31/10/2017 21:06

Waiting to have an mri and then will know more..

Thanks for asking

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2017 22:08

Sorry to hear of your bereavement, purple Flowers
While taking care of your mum, do take care of yourself too, e.g. drinking water, trying to get decent sleep, plus veg & fruit

Sounds like you are really in the fasting swing, Ollivander
Since you have done an miniFD, do make sure you also have at least one day where you eat to TDEE - if that makes you feel too full, then have say 3 days where you are trying to be near TDEE

peachy Remember: first step is to only mfp for one week, to check if you have a 2000+ weekly deficit.
If you do, then it's just a plateau, so no need to change yet, or to mfp further.

If your NFDs do turn out to be excessive, the 5:2 version of the BSD might help you - that has 2 FDs with 500-800 cals allowed, since it is daily low carb.
Important: Mosely specifically recommends beans, peas, lentils for the BSD - so do include one of these most days
His BSD meal-plans also include at least one daily portion of low sugar fruit, e.g. berries, apple, pear

Also, an alternative to 5:2 BSD is to include moderate portions of healthy carbs - oats, brown rice, quinoa - and fruit, but totally cut out added sugar and junk carbs
e.g. no cake, biscuits, sweets, ice, crisps, pizza, deep-fried food
Many folk who "can't cope with carbs" in fact can't cope with junk / sugary carbs

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 31/10/2017 22:35

Will probably have a higher cal day tomorrow. Pilates booked tomorrow which usually makes me more hungry!

purpleviolet1 · 31/10/2017 22:54

Thanks. I’ll do a NFD tomorrow and try and do an FD on Thursday all being well.

1moreRep · 01/11/2017 08:26

hi guys i'm going to do a fast day today as i had a halloween party yesterday and indulged (yet was quite restraint from my usual gorging)

this may be a bit tmi but does anyone find they go to the toilet less? i have definatley seen an improvement in movements as in quicker and similar if you understand me- less frequent too

SingingGoldfinch · 01/11/2017 09:37

Sorry to hear about your bereavement purple 💐

Enjoy your Pilates today Ollivander- and hope it doesn't make you too hungry! I'm feeling frustrated with working full time at the moment - what with that and the dc's various evening activities I really struggle to find time to fit in any meaningful exercise and really feel like I could do with some! Grrrr! Sorry, moan over!

1More - yes, toilet visits do seem less frequent for me on 5:2. My ibs symptoms are much better though!

I still feel strange not fasting on a weds but on bcfs advice I need to try and establish maintenance to get an idea of what's going to work for me. Working from home today and waiting for boiler man to arrive and fix the boiler - it's freezing so I'm sipping coffee and resisting the bowl of left over Halloween goodies!!!

Good luck all Wednesday fasters!!

Ollivander84 · 01/11/2017 10:51

Randomly, having not eaten them for years I really fancy chicken fajitas! So as it's a day of eat to TDEE, I am going to nip to Aldi after Pilates and grab some ingredients Grin

peachypips · 01/11/2017 14:46

Hi all,
FD today. So far have had 100ml milk, a Bovril and an apple. Omelette for tea with two eggs, a bit of ham and 23g cheese with a big salad.

It's such a relief to only be doing 2 fast days instead of 3. I am going to MFP like a bastard this week.

I find that I 'go' less frequently and am a bit constipated (low carbs) but I eat a tbs of milled linseed on NFDs which really works!

Sugar is like a massively harmful drug to me. Relief to cut it out again. I don't like the taste now anyway! Had a piece of cake yesterday and it tasted vile - all I could taste was the sugar and nothing else at all.

I love fajitas. I could have everything but the wrap I suppose!

Going to put a YouTube pilates vid on my TV tonight to do as my OH is away this week so I can't get out in the evenings (2 x DS @ 7&10).

Bodypump on Fri morning and will see if I can fit in a run at the weekend. Whoop!

Feel like I have a new focus and motivation today!

CroakingCrocus · 01/11/2017 19:32

So sorry purple. Flowers

2nd FD of the week for me. It's been a long, long day at work so I grabbed a chicken, veg & rice salad bowl from a shop on the way home. It came in at just under 500 calories and was actually quite nice.

The house is awash with Halloween candy so I need to focus my mind elsewhere...

BigChocFrenzy · 01/11/2017 23:02

peachy Have you tried just cutting out all added sugar and processed carb junk, but leaving in healthy starchy carbs ?
It doesn't have to be all or nothing wrt carbs

I hope the fajitas were yum, Ollivander

Avert your eyes from the crap, crocus and have an early night

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 01/11/2017 23:05

Pilates was good, struggled with a few moves but enjoyed it. Fajitas were lovely, saved some for tomorrow!
TOTM so likely to weigh heavier this week

OuchBollocks · 02/11/2017 07:26

I'msorry for your loss purple Flowers

FD today and it was planned to be busy, but DD had a bad stomach yesterday so I couldn't in good conscience send her to nursery today. Therefore its going to be a loooong day killing time at home and trying to keep the DC quietish so DH can get some sleep between night shifts.