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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Ollivander84 · 27/10/2017 19:49

Yes loads of water 😇

BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 19:57

Rhiannon If you've only gained an inch with meno, then you are doing well.
You are tackling this before it accumulates, which is very sensible.

No snacking will help keep you in fasting mode longer and helps retrain your "normal eating" on NFDs, if this is currently an issue

When you calculate exercise calories, make sure you only do so via the activity level on TDEE and calculate for one exercise level lower than you think.
Don't add on to TDEE what a gadget or calculator claims you've burned - they flatter to deceive !

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 27/10/2017 20:22

NFD nailed Halo

quackingduck222 · 27/10/2017 20:30

BCF il be honest I've eaten a bag and feel rather sick. It's stupidly addictive in my case on the past I've been literally climbing the walls wanting more!

I think your definitely right. I may go back to my weekly treat of cake. Still obviously sugar laden but I was just buying a slice instead of a slab. It was 400 cals but once a week as I've given up all junk isn't a bad option.

purpleviolet1 · 27/10/2017 21:21

BCF just remembered I never responded to your message about making up fasts. Makes sense. I’ll take it on board and no I don’t have to make them up right now

BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 21:48

duck A slice of good cake a couple of days per week is fine - or anything else that isn't like crack to you.

In my case - as my username might indicate Grin ! - my problem was choc when I started 5:2 back in 2013
I would eat MASSIVE amounts every week, quite ridiculous
Being so sporty, I'd got away with it for decades .... until meno
It wasn't just the inches:
I gave my head a wobble and finally accepted that those sugar-filled decades were bloody unhealthy

I trained myself to switch to 90% cocoa choc, which has loads of antioxidants but v little sugar; the high cocoa content makes it v chocolatey, so a small square in my porridge is quite enough.
I also 2:5ed puddings i.e. one portion on 2 days per week
I broke free of my sugar addiction within about 2 months of all that and now find my old fav chocs sickly sweet when offered - just yuk.
My only sugar now is a rice pud or small pud at a good restaurant, every week or so
I don't fancy highly processed crap any more

You are much younger, so it's a great time to knock your habit on the head, too
Some folk do better cutting out sugar totally; others by cutting down.
You know best what would suit you,

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 21:50

Well done on your FD, purple
Remember to start tomorrow - and every day - with a glass of water. It'll soon become a habit Smile

OP posts:
OuchBollocks · 28/10/2017 08:29

Today was going to be a FD anyway but I've had killer stomach pains since last night and couldn't eat if you paid me.

quackingduck222 · 28/10/2017 09:44

That's very interesting BCF thanks for sharing.

For me I seem to do better in the week when the carrot is dangled. It gives me focus.

I'd buy something in the weekly shop and happily have it in the fridge until Friday.

I'm going for a mini fast today to try to undo yesterday's junk.

peachypips · 28/10/2017 10:00

How are you Ouch? My husband and son went down with tummy pain and fever yesterday. Must be going round.

I am currently freezing my arse off on the side of a football pitch. NFD here so looking forward to a nice lunch and dinner!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 10:07

Drink lots of water, ouch I hope you feel better soon Flowers

I'm on my usual Saturday FD, nothing until supper - my usual FD salmon fillet with a huge salad, olive oil & balsamic.
Anyone else ?

OP posts:
HLBug · 28/10/2017 12:49

NSV! I just tried on my size 10 white stuff jeggings expecting them still to be too small...and they fit perfectly! Happy bunny Halloween Smile

Ollivander84 · 28/10/2017 13:35

Mussels planned for when I'm home - on offer at Morrisons for £2, the ones in a vacuum pack

purpleviolet1 · 28/10/2017 14:57

That’s great hlbug!!! Grin

NSV sort of - went out for lunch and planned to have just the one meal today as it would be a big one as we were celebrating my birthday in few days and dh new job. The food we ordered wasn’t great. Big let down actually. I just ate a little rather than binging on the carbs (naan bread, biryani etc). Usually I would’ve binged on the carbs and then still had an additional meal later. Will have grilled chicken salad tonight.

rhiannonplas · 28/10/2017 16:35

Thanks for the exercise calculation advice BCF. MFP came out with the same result as the online calculator and I under-stated the activity time. I'm starving again now but was full after I ate.
'I will not snack'...

purpleviolet1 · 28/10/2017 16:40

Been trying those toe taps and can’t manage more than 10 at a time without having to straighten out! Not as easy as they look. Will build up to 5 mins

BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 18:52

Wayhay, bug ! Great jeans NSV

Well done on your lunch NSV, purple
It's really important to develop this habit of not eating for the sake of it, when the food isn't worth it
Same as those who eat DC leftovers - you deserve to enjoy tasty good quality food, not to be a bin for what isn't good enough for others to eat.

rhiannon Using TDEE to allow for exercise - as Mosely recommends - can be a bit different to using online exercise calculators or gadgets.
Check:
Calculate your sedentary TDEE
Check your TDEE with exercise - Mosely advises one level less than you think

Is the difference between the 2 TDEEs about the same as the extra you allowed from your exercise calculators ?

OP posts:
OuchBollocks · 28/10/2017 18:56

Kitchen closed here on about 100 calories. I managed a cup a soup and some tea. Super sore and my stomach was hugely distended, waistline has increased by about ten inches since yesterday

BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 19:08

Poor ouch, your poor tum is very bloated, but it shall pass

Only 2l water and unsweetened tea all day so far this FD.
I did my 2 hr fasted training this afternoon - pump and HIT spin classes
Now for a delic salmon supper, masses of salad - I enjoy both fish and raw veg so much more since being on 5:2

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 28/10/2017 19:18

Been meaning to ask, can we have tea (without sugar) / herbal tea outwith meal times on both FD and NFD?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 19:26

btw, I just replied to you on our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 purple

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 19:35

Yes, tea or coffee are fine on FDs
Also aim for 2l water - lack of eater hinders fat-burning and plentiful water helps it along.
Fizzy crap, even diet crap - if you really must have it, then I advise a daily limit of 1 glass or 330 ml can.

tip: If you use milk / sugar in hot drinks, then the evening before the FD, measure out - & calorie count - in advance your allowance for the whole FD
and put them into 2 little pots

tip: If you like hot drinks with milk, unsweetened almond milk is v low cal, only 4-5 cals for 25 ml.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/10/2017 19:36

lack of water < spanks hungry iPad>

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 29/10/2017 07:07

Thanks. So if feeling peckish have a herbal tea perhaps

Off to a party today. NFD - plan to just have one meal at party and maybe a piece of fruit for Breakfast/Dinner

ownedbySWD · 29/10/2017 14:20

Been doing 20/4 more or less for the past 20 days and have lost about 13 lbs. My scales aren't the best.

I feel well, I'm still bf-ing and my milk supply hasn't suffered. But...isn't that too much, too fast? Just worried that I should be worried iyswim.

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