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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Ollivander84 · 26/10/2017 21:58

Weirdly I sleep if I'm stressed Confused
What does often help is a walk around the park with music blasting and playing Pokemon go. Or aerial hoop. Hard to be stressed when you're upside down suspended by one leg Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2017 22:47

Ollivander With those night shifts, you are just different Grin

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 26/10/2017 22:49

It's apparently a thing, I googled Grin
But stressed, upset, angry... I take a nap Confused
No shifts until Monday as I'm off work this week

purpleviolet1 · 27/10/2017 07:54

Thanks quacking and HL Smile

I was going to ask BCF about making up my religious fasts (drink lots water before sunrise and eat meal after sunset). I have quite a few to make up and was thinking of making them up soon anyway so this could work nicely with 5;2. I know you said I should take it easy but given the clock changes this would mean a fast between 7ish and 4:30ish. Will see how I go over the next week or so with just standard 5:2 but wanted to know of any objections ?

HLBug · 27/10/2017 08:06

Weighed in at 11 stone 3 lbs this morning which I’m taking as a good STS after a big weekend away.

Good luck to any Friday Fasters Smile

1moreRep · 27/10/2017 09:15

hello all- olive the shifts make me crazy too which is shown in my enjoyment of handstands lol

well i'm under 70kg now 69.7 this morning which i am thrilled with as i had a bottle of wine in a dinner party on wednesday

i'm going to make a real effort not to snack this week too as like many others i hate non fastbdays too.

therefore i have planned my meals today like i would on fast day (i would usually do this if at work but i'm on a week off)

i'm having omlette for lunnxh then roast chicken and salad for dinner

OuchBollocks · 27/10/2017 09:20

NFD here. I am also struggling with staying away from snacks. Veggie sausage sandwich for breakfast. Don't have lunch or dinner planned. Need to go shopping. Just me and the kids for both meals so needs to be quick.

purpleviolet1 · 27/10/2017 09:29

Weetobix for breakfast

Baked potato for lunch with minced lamb and cheese

Chicken wrap with salad for dinner

Hmm not getting much veg in there am I?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 11:55

purple We encourage people to drink more on 5:2 - aim for 2l through the day - because with much less food on 2 days, you obtain less water from food.

For religious fasts, you are usually allowed exemption if you are unwell or BFing - does that apply to you ?
On 5:2, it's fine to just have one meal after sunset, but my concern is if you can't drink between sunrise and sunset, because you already have a long-running problem with not drinking enough.

So, if you can obtain exemption for a few months until you feel fit again, I'd advise that

Would you be allowed to do a modified version, in which you drink plenty of plain water - no other drink - and have your meal at sunset ?
If so, on 2 of those days, you could keep the evening meal within 800 cals, to do 5:2

OP posts:
peachypips · 27/10/2017 11:57

Oy oy fasters! I'm on a FD today. NFD went well yesterday- I had a small amount of oats with nuts for breakfast, a pasty for lunch (I know- but I'm a Devon maid!) and a baked sweet potato for dinner with salad and chicken. Yoghurt and strawbs for pudding and a piece of dark choc.

Today I'm waiting until dinner for some lentil whatsit thing.

When I'm stressed I eat, so I get out for a run.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 12:01

purple First Aiim: 5 veg and 1-2 fruit per day (you can skip the fruit on FDs)

Suggested modifications:
B: add berries / apple / banana to your Weetabix. Have a small glass of veg juice. If you have more than 2 Weetabix, reduce by one
L: drop the cheese, add e.g. tinned tomatoes, peas, carrots & lentils
S; Have an additional side salad, dressed with vinegar and olive oil

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 12:04

Congrats on your SV, 1more and on smashing the 70 kg milestone

To help NFDs: plan your meals in advance, no snacking.
No need to calorie count, but a menu plan helps give structure and void mindless grazing

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 12:19

Exercise is a good strategy when stressed, peachy

ouch Sounds like you'd be another who would benefit from planning NFD menus in advance, for more stucture
Boost veg and beans, peas, lentils on your meals to kee ypu full - also helps your wallet.

Also everyone with small DC: don't eat their leftovers - you deserve better than being a bin.

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 27/10/2017 15:37

Today has been a mixed bag for me.

The bad thing I did was... found a shop selling my addictive sweets and bought 5 bags.

Now I've confessed that I will be on rashions of 1 bag per week. No where local sells them so when they are gone they are gone.

I had a NSV that I can't get my head round. I'm a size 6 in Primark in tops. Tried 5 on just to double check and they all fit. Seems absolutely crazy to me as I have F cup boobs.

I don't see it tho, to me size 6 are very slim ladies and I'm still podgy.

purpleviolet1 · 27/10/2017 15:55

 @quackingduck222 bet you look amazing!

Thanks BCF appreciate the constructive advice, please keep it coming as it’s helping to change my mindset. I had already had lunch by the time I read your message - ended up having baked potato, beans and cheese.

I’ve just been food shopping and bought the mini coke cans 150ml instead of 330ml cans so it’s a small change.

quackingduck222 · 27/10/2017 16:05

Purple all these little things are great. They all mount up.

rhiannonplas · 27/10/2017 16:15

BCF thanks for all the advice and energy you put into these threads.

My second FD of the week was yesterday- and, I'd put on 2lb since Monday. But, I snacked on Wednesday.

Today, I have made my meals big ones (within my TDEE but counting a big chunk of exercise calories) and am staying away from snacks. I hope that works - I'm as full as can be now, but will be playing several hours energetic sport tonight, so will burn off some more.

I measured myself this morning, and, as I thought, my waist and hips are both an inch wider than pre-menopause, but boobs the same (still a G cup though)!

peachypips · 27/10/2017 17:00

We are indeed big-of-bust! I'm trying to condition myself re the snacking too- telling myself over and over in my head 'I'm burning fat I'm burning fat!'

I think size 6 is never going to happen over here!!

quackingduck222 · 27/10/2017 17:22

I think we should rename this the big boob club Grin

Ollivander84 · 27/10/2017 17:51

Don't ask about food today Blush it's been under cals and within the 14:10 window but...
I downed a protein shake at midday, then forgot to take food, got stuck on the motorway after riding my horse. Just eaten a pack of veg sushi

peachypips · 27/10/2017 18:42

Indeed! The Busty 5:2 Birds.

Was it a FD Olli?

peachypips · 27/10/2017 18:43

Kitchen closed here at about 600. Large helping of kale, milk and a ready meal at 350. Then a cheeky mini milk which is bad for a FD!

Ollivander84 · 27/10/2017 18:50

Yes and no - I don't do full FD, I do 14:10 every day

BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 19:45

Ollivander Do plan your meals for tomorrow ans say Sunday, so you can eat up to TDEE
I hope at least you were drinking lots of water ?
Always keep a couple of litres with you, so you can glug on the go.

duck Frankly, I'd bin anything that addictive - I gather it is almost pure sugar
Sugar in large amounts spikes cravings that are very difficult to resist - and it stays on your waist and on the scales for much longer than it takes to eat

Can you choose another treat instead ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/10/2017 19:48

That sounds a decent FD, peachy
Well done all the Friday fasters Smile

OP posts:
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