5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Singing it could just be undigested food.

I tend to weigh daily but need to be mindful doing that as you see every fluctuation.

Last week I'd lost 3lb during the week. Had a carb heavy meal stupidly weighed and had gained the 3lbs I'd lost during the week. Was gutted but a mini FD and it was all off by the next morning. TOTM can also play havoc. And as BCF says a good poop and it will sort you right out!

I was a bit disappointed this morning with 1/2 pound loss from yesterday's FD. But I've given my head a wobble and decided overall I've done pretty well. So plan to continue with today's B2B FD.

Starving hungry but it will get it out the way I suppose.

Congrats on your SV and whoosh, Mship < admires graph >
It is is useful to review NFDs after every stone lost and recalculate TDEE - no need to mfp if you are still losing

Goldfinch Weight naturally fluctuates a couple of lb. That'll be undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water
You need to keep to a system for at least 3 weeks to evaluate how it is working.
So I recommend you keep to 6:1, no extra minis or FDs

How are you doing purple? I’m having a second cup of black tea now to celebrate not buying the entire contents on the bread aisle in Sainsbury’s Shopping on a FD is a nightmare.

Hope you’re managing to keep busy. Remember you’ve got a really yummy dinner to look forward to tonight! I might try and nap with the baby this afternoon - could you try that too?

rhiannon If you don't snack, or eat too much junk, then NFD hunger should drop off after the first 2-3 weeks

Hi again, thanks to those who've said hello and offered tips.

My waist actually is less than half my height already, I'm about a size 10-12 (10 on top, 12 on bottom) which I know isn't that big but I've never felt completely comfortable at this size (I still feel a bit like a fat kid inside I think) and felt much better at an 8-10 (I figured if I was wearing an 8 then I couldn't be fat, a bit mad I know) so that's why I want to lose weight, I have to lose a lot for it to make a difference to my dress size cos I'm tall so I think 10 stone at 5'9 will take me to maybe an 8 all the time or an 8-10 definitely.

I've found I'm eating more on NFDs so I will try your tip of no snacking at all BigChocFrenzy. It's my second FD today and I'm feeling a bit sick and headachey, I've taken some painkillers but am just on water at the moment because not eating anything at all seems to stop the onset of any hunger. I'm in two minds as to whether I should eat something later as from the last FD it seems to be harder to stop eating than to not start eating IFSWIM.

Lots of encouraging chat.

HLBug I went to visit dm who has had a nap this morning and df asked me to cook them their lunch and dinner and I did that without joining them feeling ok tbh. As I mentioned earlier I got into a stupid habit of not eating and then binge eating so I’m not finding the lack of food hard iykwim. I don’t think I’ve had a proper lunch (apart from yday and the odd other day) since having LO. The first few months were really tough with my own health and ds has cmpa/ reflux. I lost weight after the birth but recently piled it back on !

Tried the

Dm has had surgery,, not a nap... lol

Well done for keeping going despite cooking purple, that can be pretty tough. I hope that your DM will be on the mend soon.

I’m just about to cook my omelette and try and offer DD (also CMPA) a piece too. Fingers crossed for no reaction to eggs
I forgot how much I hate weaning!!!

@HLBug ofcourse, we were on the other thread together. I haven’t tried ds with egg yet...

Feeling peckish (as I cook my own curry for this evening) so switched from water to diluting juice

Hello - can I join please? I've had great success with 5:2 in the past but have rather fallen off the wagon. I'm not massively overweight but felt far better when I was fasting for 2 days a week. My weight is also creeping upwards in a steady trajectory!

Welcome flippetydip

Finding it tough now... dh should be in soon and then I’ll get the dinner on. Surprised myself but think I’m
Craving carbs as I’m due on my period? It’s the only time I crave chocolates

B2B fast has actually gone pretty well not eaten since 7pm last night.

I've got 2 pork chops that need to be used by today. They come in by themselves at 530 cals so I'm going to be over today.

I'd already decided our treat meal would be tomorrow and will prob do a mini fast on the weekend to break the habit of the binging as that worked really well last weekend and kept me on the straight and narrow.

I think also having a set day off where I can relax gives me something to look forward to.

purple we’re nearly there! DH is currently cooking chicken stir fry for our tea, which DS will be told is spaghetti** That should bring me to 540 calories which I’m ok with.

After tea I’ll brush my teeth (great BCF tip) and have an early night.

quacking very well done on your B2B, very impressive!

Random bold fail there, sorry!

Oh I thought I had posted but apparently not... finished up at 700-800 cals as per BCF advice.

Got into bed now with a glass of water

hamster Tip to avoid FD headaches: glug a teasp of Marmite say mid-morning and mid-afternoon (it's only 10 cals)
This replenishes salt which is lower with the much reduced calories. Marmite also boosts B vits

Well done on your b2b, duck

Welcome, flippety
You'll soon be back in the fasting swing
Lots of info in the OP, if you weren't here your first time round

I recommend everyone has a defined maintenance plan to stick to, once they reach goal
You don't want to undo all your hard work.

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

purple The hormonal changes at totm do cause cravings for carbs & fat, i.e. often for processed junk.
Women often feel bloated too, with retained water
However, if you avoid giving in to the munchies, then this water will be released the FD following totm and you may find you have also lost a 1lb or so.

Thanks BCF I’ll keep reading that lol

hamster Snacking on NFDs keeps insulin raised all day and hence hinders fat-burning,
as well as increasing overall hunger and calorie intake.

^Compared to snacking (graph 1)
if you eat 3 meals per day, no snacks (graph 2) then your body spends much longer in fat-burning mode, rather than in high insulin / fat-storing mode:^

Snacking was invented around 1980 by Big Food to make Big Profits.

Before then, umpteen generations of human beings just ate meals (and sometimes fasted because of famine, or later also because of religion)

I can't think of a traditional food culture that has snacking.

Well done on making it to the end of your first FD purple I find it helps to know what days are FDs each week - so for me it’s every Tues and Thurs. Have a think about when your next FD will be and enjoy a lovely NFD tomorrow.

Well done Purple! You have done great.

I'm off to bed, I'm starving and am expecting to be a stone lighter tomorrow. No im only joking anything is a massive plus.

How are you doing, DrK ?
I answered your question last night on our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3

duck - & all scales bunnies: if you weigh daily, don't worry puzzling about fluctuations, just monitor the morning after the 2nd FD (every 1-4 weeks)

Hi, sorry Bigchoc I haven't looked. I'll go and read it, thank you very much.
I had a good FD today. oil-free stir fry of tofu, beansprouts and garlic and chilli split into two meals. Cheated with a spoon of pine nuts while I was making tomorrow's lunch but must be below 500 for today.
Yesterday was shit, I did good NFD eating all day but then I was stressed and upset about something so that was the perfect excuse to drink too much wine in the evening .

DrK Since you realise that stress is a trigger for you drinking far too much, I suggest developing 2 new habits:

whenever you feel stressed,

1. drink a glass of water, then clean your teeth

• this breaks the chain of events, gives a fresh taste, makes you less likely to fancy mixing tastes, or getting your teeth dirty (I advise the same to handle temptations to overeat) AND / OR

2. either go for a quick run, or - as I do when stressed - do sets of pressups and deep squats until you are breathless Vigorous exercise creates endorphins which help your mood - a walk may not be sufficiently intense.

Thanks. Really good advice. I'll be trying the water and the squats/ push ups next time