5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

quacking - am I reading this right - are you now 5ft 3 and 8st 5.5lb? That sounds like a very healthy weight already.

Like you and purple I am 5ft 3, but post-menopause and would be delighted to be 9st again.
(I was 8st 2 in my wedding pictures and looked great, but it would be scrawny at my age now).

Just shows what different body shapes we all must be - I’m 5’4” and my goal is 10 stone 3 which is about size 8/10 clothes. I’m all boooooob though (FF cup) and don’t think I’ve ever been in the 9 stone club.

HL I am blessed of boob too and sometimes wonder what I would weigh as B cup instead of G.

Same. I'm 5ft 10 and a 32JJ, aiming for 13 stone. I had a mass whoosh this morning and hit 14st 4!

Good luck, fasters

Great routine duck
You sound already at a good weight - are you just relearning good habits for maintenance ?

DrK Is that an FD or an NFD ?
Unless your TDEE is really small, you should be able to have 3 decent meals on NFDs, since you are no longer snacking
Include sufficient protein in all meals, since it is satiating. Fish especially.

See how you feel today
For a future NFD, I'd recommend lunch based around protein and veg. How about a curry or stirfry with brown rice / quinoa / sweet potato ?

I think I am a similar shape to bug, but taller at 5'7" and 36H. I'm 13st5 now, BMI 29.2 in 16/18 clothes. My current goal is 12st, which would get me to BMI 26.3 and probably size 14 clothes. I will never join the 9 st club, and I'm ok with that. I'm so happy I've come so far already (17st after DC2 May 2016, 16st May 2017), and I can do things like keep up with two very active small children, and even fit through all the soft play tight bits!

Congrats on your SV whoosh, Ollivander Wow, you'll be looking at 13 stone something soon

A whoosh typically happens after you've lost quite a bit, then been sts for a few weeks
It is thought that during the sts period, your bod was losing fat, but filled the empty fat cells with water, to resist losing weight.
Once the previous loss has been consolidated, if you've persisted with the WOE, then the body is ready to release that water and empty the fat cells.
Hence, whoosh !

Sounds a sensible plan, Mship and you must be proud of your progress
Mind you, once you get to goal, you may find like many others that you can comfortably set a more ambitious goal
Or you may decide the first goal is what is sustainable longterm for you

I'm hoping for a 1lb loss soon which will take me out the 200lb club
Goals after that are
Under 14st
13st 10 - that will be 3 stone lost
Then goal weight

I had such a plateau, then I did two days of eating whatever I wanted but still within 14:10 and bingo!

purple Sounds like you may well have insulin resistance.
However, you recent low carb attempt suggests that low carb NFDs would be too much additional stress for you to handle at the moment, with all the other changes.

Hence, I recommend concentrating on the most important changes first:

1. Drinking plenty of water
2. Starting a gentle form of 5:2 - with 1-2 low carb FDs if you wish
3. Cutting down junk – cake, biscuits, sweets, crisps, pizza, deep-fried food - and avoiding binges If you feel able to cut out junk cold turkey, rather than cut down, that is great. However, being too strict leads some folk to binge – you decide which approach works best for you
4. Boosting veg & beans

Starchy Carbs
Many folk who have problems with carbs eat too much of the wrong type of carbs, i.e heavily processed, low fibre etc.
They can often see significant improvements if they cut right back on sugar and also wheat – the 2 foods that tend to most increase insulin, hunger and weight.

So, at least for the first month or two, try the moderate portions – up to 100g starchy carb weight per main meal - of the healthy carbs I posted.
It takes a while for your body and mind to heal when you have had a tough time, so allow yourself this time, then review and tweak your WOE if need be.
This first stage is about recovering your strength and changing habits, so relax and try not to be impatient to lose quickly atm.

Wow! You've done so well quacking!! Such a brilliant achievement, you must be really chuffed!

I'm reading the exercise posts with interest. I was being so good and doing 30 day shred DVD at least 4 times a week but have lapsed since summer holidays. I really need to get back into it, especially now I'm easing into maintenance but I do struggle to motivate myself and to fit it in (sounds like a pathetic excuse I know!) I did enjoy it when I was in the swing of it though and felt better too so I really should try harder!

Hi everyone, I'm just starting out with 5:2, I had my first FD on Monday which was hard but ok. Then on Tuesday I was definitely a bit hungrier than normal, but glad to say that today I feel more normal again, just had my usual porridge and banana for breakfast. I plan to fast again on Thursday.

I'm looking for slow and steady and relatively painless weightloss. I just can't face every day dieting any more, I feel like I've been on some kind of diet for my entire adult life and much of my childhood! I was a normal weight at the age of 4 but then put on a lot of weight and got up to 7 stone at 7 years old, I wish I could remember why as the rest of my family was/is slim, I think now it was stress, I remember there being a lot of arguments at home at that time.

Anyway, since then I've been up and down and I've never really been able to relax around food and just breathe, you know? I'm really hoping this will be something I can stick to (in the form of 6:1 hoepfully) for good. Weighing too regularly stresses me out/makes me feel disheartened so I think I'm going to weigh in once a month instead, hoping for a loss of 1lb a week. My bmi's just over 25 and I'm hoping to lose 2 stone to get down to the other end of the healthy bmi range for my height (5'9).

I'm definitely worried that I'm going to be an outlier and that this won't work for me as it has for many others, trying to reassure myself to just give it a chance.

Hang on, sorry I've put the wrong start weight.

My start weight earlier this year was 10st 10.8. Not 10st 5.

2 stone loss I'm now 8 st 10.8.

I'm my own worst enemy as I go off track and self sabotage but I feel a lot happier now.

It's incredible to see all your stats, we are all so very different.

Purple- I think you've hit the nail on the head. Baby steps is exactly right. As this is a new way of life I always think small steps that you can change for good is definitely the right way.

I have been on and off all different diets for 6 years now. Some entail changing everything your doing and the problem is you can't stick to them forever so I revert back to my default of eating crap and the pounds pile back on. But by taking small steps it leads to the bigger picture.

You will do just great! BCF is a wealth of knowledge and really knows her stuff.

Hello and welcome hamster! You've definitely found the right place for help and support here - and sounds like 5:2 is just the WOE you need to get out of the feeling of constant dieting. It really is a way of life rather than a diet and it has definitely had a really positive impact on my relationship with food! It sounds like you've made a good start already and you'll get loads of advice here!

You're about the same height as me. I was 11st4 when I started in May and am now 9st8 - feeling much better about myself and easing into 6:1 maintenance now. So, I think your slow and steady weight loss plan is definitely achievable - and weighing less often is a good plan too! Aim for first thing in the morning after your second fd.

Quacking - still great results even with slightly different start weight! Always love reading about people's successes!!

Really appreciate all the help. I feel a bit more in control finally.

I was really struggling to think what to have for lunch - was tempted to have a can of coke and be done with it then i remembered I had home made chicken kebabs in the freezer so had those with some pasta I had forgotten about which I made yesterday. It was Philadelphia cheese, mayonaise, tin of 5 bean salad, peppers and prawns. Not a fan of prawns so I picked them out now knocking back the water like no mans business..

Any tips on how to calorie count with home made recipes without

Measuring individual items and inputting into mfp?

Also any tips on veg usage? I tend to buy with good intentions but don’t use up the whole amount, have plans change so don’t end up cooking it, or I’ve forgotten about it and it’s gone off by the time I’ve remembered. I try to meal plan but with LO doesn’t work out.

Might be an idea to buy and chop / freeze veg straight away and take out as required?

I just go for the nearest alternative on MFP with home-made recipes- ultimately if you're losing weight, there's no need to be 100% precise with everything, especially if it's full of vegetables. Over time, you get more of a feel for what's right.

I used mfp and was quite precise about weighing in the early days but then found that I had a really good idea of the calorie content of all my fd meals so I don't bother anymore. After a while you definitely get a better sense of quantities and calorie content.

I use MFP and calculate everything individually. It's a mega PITA but a real eye opener.

Would recommend doing it for a couple of weeks as guestamates can be lethal. MFP then learns the amounts / what your eating and you begin to learn e.g. What a chicken breast is roughly.

As for veg I'm the same and I was sick of the waste so I only buy frozen now. I find asda pretty great for frozen ready chopped veg also Iceland.

The only fresh veg I buy now is tomatoes and mushrooms.

Welcome Hamster, it's a amazing way of life this. I'm not going to call it a diet as it's really not.

I would recommend you take your measurements at the beginning too as the inch losses on here are fab.

Definitely give it a chance, we are all so different and losses are different in all of us. None of my friends can understand 5:2 as there seems to be a misconception of eat what you want for 5 days then starve yourself for 2. Then they say I can't understand how you can loose weight by doing that.

And the truth is you can't. It's all about calorie deficit but it's great as it is a relaxed approach.

I cannot be trusted to do this on my own. MFP gives me accountability and I’m now so used to it I don’t think twice about inputting every meal. I also regularly eat the same things so it’s super quick just picking things from the ‘recent’ selection.

Sounds good progress with the water, peachy

purple Like duck I usually have frozen veg, unless I get just the right amount for a stir-fry.
Beans: I eat a lot of kidney beans, chick peas, lentils etc but always tinned - rinse very well and drain, so they don't make you farty
I also get tins of a mix containing peas, baby carrots & asparagus.
I avoid any tins with sauces - often packed with sugar & junk

oops sorry, confused my "p's* - it's purple* who's ramping up the water

Welcome, hamster
That's good you are thinking longterm
At BMI 25, you are almost within healthy weight, so do monitor waist too - inches loss there quickly change your shape and also improve health markers
First aim is to get waist (measured at narrowest point) within 0.5 of your height, if it isn't atm. Then see if you wish to go further.

Main tips:

• No snacking ever, even "healthy" ones like fruit or nuts
  Have whatever fruit, nuts, treats or alcohol only with a meal
  This tip helps keep NFDs under control, usually without counting cals

• Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking throughout
  Fizzy crap doesn't count as water = try to limit fizz to one glass / 330 ml can per day, maximum

Thanks BCF and @quackingduck222

I should start weighing and posting everything then. Will start that tomorrow

For dinner ive had a salmon fillet with buttered leeks and buttered baby corn with a small portion of leftover pasta from
Earlier. Random mix I know!

Unfortunately Dh has just ordered a takeaway and has ordered me a grilled chicken fillet (not processed) 🍔. Is that really very very bad?