5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Knew exactly what you meant DrK!!

Thanks for the reassurance BCF. I've been so strict on FDs up until this point that it felt like a huge slip up but in hindsight it wasn't all that bad. I've actually had a tot up and think I'm still coming in at around 600cals despite the sliver of fruit pie so not feeling as bad now!

Hi all,

This is my second attempt to re-start 5:2. I last did it before my two miscarriages and successful pregnancy but now I have my beautiful LO I can focus on my diet and health again.

I’ve got into a really silly WOE - im not eating and then I’m binging on junk. I need a good telling off my main issue is that I feel pretty horrendous and I know it’s all to do with my diet. I have no energy and looking after a 7 month old is tiring me out even though he is an easy baby and is much easier to look after than a few months ago. A few years ago I had cancer and major surgery which has left life-long issues with how my body copes - I get tired super quick and when I’m tired I get run down quickly and body starts aching, develop infections etc.

I’ve always been a fussy eater and my diet has been quite limited but I am trying to generally expand this now. I like chicken breast, and chicken and lamb mince. I’m ok with most fruit and veg, and salmon, cod and haddock. I love cheese and ok with eggs. That’s pretty much it though I’ve been reading up on the low carb high fat diet and did give it a very lazy attempt but I felt too restricted and basically kept rebelling with junk. I do carry a lot of weight on my stomach and I had gestational diabetes so I would really like to lose weight from here.

I’ve also got into this stupid habit of not drinking until I feel really thirsty. It sounds pathetic writing it down.

Could anyone offer any healthy meals/ snack ideas apart from grilled chicken and veg as that’s as far as my inspiration goes...silly question as the choice is endless but I just need a few healthy go to meals. I feel like I have to cut things out like shepherds pie, pasta so that leaves me very limited.

I’ll measure and post first thing in the morning.

I've been starving this evening but a mug of low cal hot choc did the trick and lots of water.

Agree with the DH not understanding FD. Yesterday mine said what do you want from chip shop il stop in after work. I said I don't we had a night off Saturday and that's are lot for the week.
1 hour later. I'm outside the chip shop what do you want? To stave his head in wasn't the correct answer apparently. I didn't crumble!

Welcome Purple. This thread is amazing and fantastic support.
I always thought I wasn't a fussy eater but turns out I probably am as I'm very limited especially on what veg I have.

For me I only eat tomato (have them every meal) mushroom cauliflower peas / beans (try to limit to 1 per week) and mixed peppers. Let's just say I do have very strange meals most nights.

I'm quite plain tho and if I enjoy a meal I happily repeat it a few times a week.

I'm probably not much help so hopefully someone else will be along who can.

lol at you dh at the chip shop quacking! Should probably say my dh is normally pretty respectful about my FDs - think he's just in holiday mode as off work for half term.

Welcome purple! You'll find loads of help and support on this thread and I'm sure you'll get loads of meal ideas to get you started. Here are some of my staples to get you started:

• 2 egg omlette with a big salad drizzled with balsamic vinegar. You can add mushrooms, tomatoes and/or peppers to make it more interesting.
• baked sweet potato with a tin of tuna mixed with low fat natural yoghurt and chopped spring onions served with big salad
• Italian fish stew
• lentil curry
• chicken stir fry - flavour with Chinese five spice and/or soy sauce

I have this book which I use loads - lots of easy, tasty low cal meals! I can especially recommend the fish stew, Goan fish curry and caponata! https://www.bookdepository.com/Easy-One-Pot-Without-the-Calories-Justine-Pattison/9781409154792?redirected=true&utmmedium=Google&utmmcampaign=Base4&utmsource=UK&utmmcontent=Easy-One-Pot-Without-the-Calories&selectCurrency=GBP&w=AFC7AU96G752H2A80CJMAF2N&pdg=pla-311544571188:cmp-957742284:adg-46839130279:crv-227230786243:pos-1o27&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI68z1-tuH1wIVRrXtCh3RtgaGEAQYGyABEgLwlfD_BwE

I'm starving after listing those meals! Time for bed! Think I'll dream about marmite on toast for breakfast!

hi all- well i crashed out of my fast day at 700 cal so i'm going to try again tomoz (it was a slice of pizza that did it but i had been at work all day and had just got in)

I'm in emergency services ouch so long shifts

i did make myself go to the gym
abd did an hour burning crossfit class

i can recommend crossfit to anyone

i am also awaiting an adhd formal
diagnosis (have done educational psychologist part) so i'm wondering weather ill get to try medication which can help me focus and replace some other medication i'm on - so i find working out easy as i have loads of energy

Hello purpleviolet 💕

1moreRep that's not a crash out, just a wee blip, you did great!

I missed fasting yesterday and may well miss another day this week due to illness (just a bad sore throat, but the tea w/ honey required would totally kill a FD!). The weight is still slowly coming off. Down to 13st 5 today.

I agree with Mship, that's still a good calorie deficit.

Another pound and a bit off here today, so 12st 7 exactly.

1more I'd count that as an FD
Don't have another one today - being too strict (on any WOE) is generally not a good strategy
Just make today a sensible NFD within TDEE

Well done on your SV, ouch, Mship

Don't try to fast when ill, Mship especially when the weight is still coming off anyway.
Pamper yourself with TLC:
Lots of water and nutritious food to support your immune system - especially boost veg, fruit & beans.
No junk or alcohol
Extra sleep

Get well soon

thanks guys i'm just glad to have a day off work today - shift work can be really disorientating regarding eating etc. the only thing that helps is sport as it wakes me up. i really struggled tired wise yesterday then had a second wind after the pizza.

i'm going to go for a run later before i pick the kids up. i'm trying to up my running into the winter on my rest days from the gym. it helps me to also switch off from my job which is very stressful.

Welcome, purple
You’ve had a very tough time with serious illness and ops, given birth and are now coping with an lo
No wonder you’re knackered !

Stress and tiredness in themselves often hinder weight loss and recovery to full health.
In your circs, you need a very gentle WOL, to support your body’s recovery
< squirts TLC over purple >

5:2 TLC version:

1. Do 700-1000 cal FDs, not 500 Even if you are not BFing, I strongly recommend this in your case, not in good health and probably sleep-deprived with an lo. Intermittent Fasting uses the same principle of “hormesis” (high load for short periods, separated by recovery) as HIIT. So if you are not feeling very well, it can be tiring

Other folk on these threads, who have had problams with 500 cal FDs, have lost with these more relaxed FDs
sustainability is key in weight loss
Results are much better if you regularly nail more relaxed FDs, rather than being too strict, nailing some and then bingeing or even crashing out for months.

2. Prioritise drinking much more water
   Lack of water hinders fat-burning and more importantly can damage your health: kidney function, painful kidney stones, high BP .... DOn’t go there.
   Start each day, FD or NFD, with a glass of water and keep drinking
   Aim for 2l - That can be as tea, coffee, milk, nut milk etc
   If it helps, drink squash – the priority is to rehydrate and also retrain your drinking habits
   However, fizzy crap doesn’t hydrate well and usually has nasties like sodium benzoate. Limit fizz to 1 glass or 330 ml can per day

3. Try to cut down sugary crap – cake, biscuits, sweets etc - and also savoury junk: crisps, deep fried food, poppadoms etc
   You could say allow one portion on 2-3 days per week, so you don’t feel deprived
   Or with sugar, you might find it easier to just cut it out. Whatever works for you.

4. Do NOT cut out food groups on NFDs - too stressful for you
   (sugary crap, booze are treat groups, not food groups)
   Many folk find FDs easier with low carb, but no need to low carb on NFDs unless you are preT2 / T2
   Also no need to go low fat: except on FDs, no need to worry about grilling instead of frying

+Boost fish – excellent for health, so it’s great that you like this. Have it most NFDs & FDs if you like.
Prawns are good lean protein on FDs, e.g. stirfry with veg
Eggs are v versatile protein: veg omelettes, scrambled with tomato (add bacon & toast on NFDs, stir fry with veg), boiled egg & salad

+Boost veg – aim for 5+ portions non-starchy veg plus 1-2 portions fruit, especially berries and apples. Why not try a new veg each week.
+Boost beans, peas, lentils – good for stabilising blood sugar
+Add full fat unflavoured Greek yoghurt (delic with berries), up to 50g cheese, up to 40g nuts & seeds

+Add sensible portions of healthy starchy carbs: oats (porridge with fruit, cinammon & flaked almonds), brown / red rice, sweet potato, ordinary potato, quinoa
Try rye or almond bread - Many folk who think they can’t cope with starchy carbs in fact can’t cope with wheat, which can be too moreish (bread, pasta, biscuits etc)

Meals
Base meals around a protein, add different veg, plus a starchy carb, plus optionally fruit & for pud
Stir fries, curries, stews are usually pretty easy and you can pack them with veg

healthy recipes
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/easy-healthy
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/600-calorie-meals
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/7-day
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/cheap-and-healthy
http://www.eatwell101.com/low-effort-healthy-dinners-recipes

Thanks so much guys

Thanks BCF - that sounds so much more doable and realistic for me.

I weigh 64.8 kilos (around 10 stone 3lb I think). Because I’m only 5”2 I really need to lose a decent amount. My BMI is 26 so technically overweight now. Checked the TDEE calc - it comes in at 1604 and approx 1200 bmr. Since I’m so short should I aim for let’s say 1500 calories on a NFD? I did start going for daily 30-40 min walks but then I read that it won’t help weight loss so I gave up I don’t do any other form of exercise. I really enjoyed Pilates but can’t find a suitable class and I just don’t have the energy or fitness for anything else at the moment

Never managed to take measurements this morn, will do tomorrow morn..

Checking in after a bizarre birthday long weekend which involved a last minute trip away (thanks to lovely DH) and more than a little bit of cake

But I'm back and it's a very welcome FD today - had some chilli oil fried new potatoes and grated cheese for lunch (not the healthiest but only 150 calories and I was craving carbs) and will have grilled chicken and roasted veg for dinner tonight.

Waves to purple and anyone else who has joined again recently

Purple have you considered getting a yoga mat and finding Pilates excersize videos on youtube you could do at home?

I used to do this with Zumba and it was great as it was free

purple I suggest aiming for 1500-1600 on NFDs, with lots of water, veg

Exercise helps some folk lose a little more weight, or break through a plateau -providing they don't eat more !
However, the main reason for building up to regular exercise is health - so do try to have at least a 20 minute daily walk or jog.

If you feel up to 20 minutes* concentrated work, then download free Shred 1 and do this at home.

Even less time - Mosely recommends HIIT Fat Blasts*:
2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home / in the park / gym, *
see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

oops, random bolding by the App

That was a lovey birthday surprise from your DH, bug
5:2 rule - enjoy cake on your birthday

@quackingduck222 funnily enough I have a yoga mat and YouTube on our tv! I just got disheartened because I read that it won’t do much for shape if your carrying excess fat. Stupid attitude to have I know. Something is better than nothing

@BigChocFrenzy thank you really appreciate your guidance. I have the shred dvd but recently moved house and no DVD player - where can I stream it from? I found it really tough when I last did it but did find fitness built up faster than expected. However I didn’t do it for long enough to see any shape changes.

I forgot to say earlier @BigChocFrenzy that I carry a lot of excess of abdomen and I’m sure last time I was on here you suggested I try lowering carbs as excess abdominal weight is a sign of insulin resistance. Probably true because it’s the first place weight goes on.

I want to start tomorrow but don’t know how to start as silly as that sounds, would you recommend starting with a NFD?

It's been a NFD for me after yesterday's FD and I've been ravenous since mid afternoon when I went to the gym.

I'm counting calories because I know NFD overeating is my downfall- the problem is that my TDEE is only 1395. I've counted exercise and am 140 calories over today, we'll see what the scales say next week.

rhiannon I'm trying to be better on nfds too. I CBA to calorie count though so as a trial today I'm having a generous bowl of porridge with blueberries for breakfast then a cup soup and apple for lunch, lots of fruit tea and a bean stew with leaves and avocado for supper. Should be filling enough to get me through and I'm the right sort of busy today. Fingers crossed.
I plan to hit the at the start of tomorrow's fd and that post work out hunger worries me too. I'll let you know if I find a helpful solution

FD here today. Plan to keep myself busy.

Purple I sound quite similar to you. Im 5ft 3 all my weight is on tummy / thighs.

When I do work out I don't do much cardio but I do try and work my stomach / thighs. I did go through a bout of toning just at home 2/3 times a week earlier this year and the difference in appearance in especially my stomach is pretty drastic.

I restarted this plan back in the very end of May this year at 10 stone 5.6 BMI 26.6

I'm 2 stone down from that ATM and 7.5 inches off my tummy.

I wish I could add pictures but I'm worried that the background could identify me.

I've added a YouTube link for you, 8:02 is pilates toe taps this has been incredible for me. I put on a piece of music and do it for 5 mins. BCF told me about it but I struggled to visualize it until I found this video.

@quackingduck222 thank you so much!! That’s really encouraging. I should just do what I can and not expect results and see where it takes me...

I’ve had major abdominal surgery and then had a c section earlier this year, my muscles are just very weak so really anything should help, initially at least.

Thank you.

I decided to start with a NFD and had 2 weetobix with a small sprinkle of sugar. Sugar is bad I know but I used to have weetobix every morning until I decided it wasn’t healthy enough so I ended up not eating at all - and this contributed to the not eating and then binging. Small baby steps.

DrK - that sounds scrumptious!