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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AdalindSchade · 23/10/2017 11:43

I've had one low fat yoghurt so far today. I have vegetable soup for lunch and will do something with mushrooms and other vegetables for dinner. Previously I found it easier to have one meal at dinner time but don't think that's going to work just now, need to ease in to that!

peachypips · 23/10/2017 12:13

Hi all,
Thank you for all of your advice- what a truly excellent thread.

I had a really good chat with DH about my eating issues and we have come to the conclusion that my biggest problem is not carbs but sugar. As soon as I add a tiny bit of sugar it triggers a binge.

So am going to focus on the second plan you laid out BCF. Mon, Wed or Thurs and Sun 500. Other days TDEE with no sugar but with healthy carbs. I already eat a square of 85% dark choc so will continue with that. Am going to allow myself berries and apples again.

I am such an all or nothing person- find it really hard not to swing from bingeing to starving myself!

Hi others- hope you are well. Loads of SV which is so encouraging! Ada you will smash it- just remember you can get through one day of this and that's all it takes.

Quack - we are def twins. Are you an all or nothing person? I have mild bipolar which doesn't help!

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2017 12:29

Congrats on your SV, Rhiannon Good start

Congrats too, duck
Having an FD or miniFD at the weekend is the best way to avoid weekend sabotage

Fine to have a piece of cake on some NFDs, DrK
When you don't deprive yourself too much, then you avoid crashing out and eating the whole cake.

Ease your way back in, Adalind and good luck on your1st FD back
If the first couple of weeks are nearer 700-800, that's ok
You can move to skipping breakfast when you feel ready, then decide as you progress, whether you prefer 2 meals or 1

Your DH sounds supportive, peachy
Try to relax, measure progress over the weeks and avoid extremes
Work on changing your mindset, so you come away from the starving / bingeing cycle
Longterm weight management is about sensible eating on NFDs, often with 1-2 of the 800 FDs on maintenance, to give yourself wiggle room.

OP posts:
DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 12:34

Adalind I'm having vegetable soup today. I think vegetables are magic and soup is genius.
But I am struggling right now because I've given the DCs spaghetti hoops with wholemeal toast and sliced apples and the toast smells too fabulous.
But the craving will pass.
I'm sipping my tumeric gold herbal tea.

AdalindSchade · 23/10/2017 12:41

I just had a piece of chocolate Blush
I'm so crap at self control. It was a very small piece and now I'm drinking fizzy water

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 12:44

You'll still be well within your FD calorie allowance Adalind I'd wash that down with a black coffee and savour the moment.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 12:45

In order to curb my weekday drinking I've booked a bodypump class for tomorrow night so even though it's a NFD I won't be able to drink.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 13:55

Oh, here's a tip: don't put the breadmaker on when it's a FD

Ollivander84 · 23/10/2017 13:59

Pilates tomorrow for me
NSV - I fit in size 14 primark skinny jeans!

quackingduck222 · 23/10/2017 14:11

Peachy - I am definitely a all or nothing. For me I'm either 100% on track or 100% off track with the mindset il diet again Monday. I can't get the balance right.

My weekends is also sugar. Il let you into a secret.., I was too embarrassed to mention this last week. But
Sweets in particular are my weekness about 6 weeks ago I found the holy grail of sweets but I had been so good and I was at my lowest weight. I allowed myself 1 pack at 1000cals. That turned into about 2 weeks of eating them every day. The more I ate the more I wanted it was like a addiction. 12 lbs I put on.

Then last week sat and Sunday I completely binged out on all sorts of shite.

I went round all the bargain shops buying a few in each to stock up so I didn't look like a pig. Ate them all but they are luckily discontinued now. Can't get them anywhere. Nothing comes close so that's the end of that.

I'm taking up a new craft this week, hopefully keep me busy and my head out the fridge Grin

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 14:26

Hurray Olivander Fitting into jeans is so brilliant. well done.

Quack Grin I'm not even going to ask what they were. Well done for facing your demons.

peachypips · 23/10/2017 15:30

Quacking - they weren't Squashies by any chance were they? They are the best sweets!

You are right- as soon as you start eating sugar it's like a landslide. If I remove sugar then I find it hard to binge- the only danger area for me when there is no sugar is nuts or bread.

peachypips · 23/10/2017 15:32

Olli - that is awesome! Well done!

quackingduck222 · 23/10/2017 15:42

No, they were chewits wands. Very sweet long tubes with almost fondant icing inside. They were stupidly sweet but so so yummy!

I've not heard of those sweets. Probably a good thing tho.

I blame it on the fact I wasn't allowed sweets as a child.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 17:02

Grrrrr.
No calories thus far today and DH is making roast dinner for him and the DCs (It's a tradition, using the leftover meat from yesterday)
I don't even eat meat and it's making me sooo hungry. I want today to finish and just go to bed.

SingingGoldfinch · 23/10/2017 17:05

Slow to catch-up as usual but a quick skim tells me there have been some great svs and nsvs- great work!

Fd for me today and really struggling - I'm SO hungry. Normally I find I don't have to try too hard anymore bye really feeling it today. I wonder if it's now I'm on a 6:1 schedule for maintenance - you'd think one fd a week would be easier but maybe it makes it more extreme or something. Anyway, I've only eaten 140cals so far today and cooking a big stir fry for tea soon which will hopefully keep me going until bedtime. I've just eaten one sugar free polo which was a bad idea as think it's made me even more hungry!

Hope everyone else is coping ok with their FDs today!

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 17:30

Poor goldfinch
A marmite drink has just helped me.
Hang on there.
Distract and drink

SingingGoldfinch · 23/10/2017 18:32

Stir fry done. Dh also insisted I joined him and the kids in having a piece of the fruit pie we didn't get round to eating yesterday. I had the tiniest sliver but am feeling guilty - fd fail!!

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 20:25

That can't be a fail singinggoldfinch a tiny piece.
I have to be quite clear really fucking arsey with dh when I'm on a dd. "Would you like some wine?" Fuck off

OuchBollocks · 23/10/2017 20:28

So singing you had a, what, 700ish cal fast day instead of a 500 cal one? That's still a win in my book :)

Kitchen closed here. I'm tired after all that fresh air today!! Belly rumbling but I can have a nice veggie sausage sandwich in the morning.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 20:30
DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 20:36

On a fd. I'm never on a dd

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2017 21:15

Well done on your jeans NSV, Ollivander

That's often a useful tactic, DRK Using a gym class to avoid booze or any other habit you want to get under control

Duck, peachy Allowing yourself regular helpings of healthy starchy carbs and fruit often reduces the urge to binge on sugar:
when your body is starved of carbs, the urge for sugary crap can be overpowering.

What can help reduce temptation: calculate how many teaspoons or grams of sugar in that crap

It's not just about calories:
Added sugar in excess can be seriously damaging to your longterm health.
Contrary to what the sugary crap manufacturers keep claiming, there is very strong evidence lonking the amount of added sugar consumed in a society to the level of T2 diabetes there.

Persistently high levels of sugar will eventually lead to insulin resistance, which moves your weight set point upwards,
i.e. your body will always try to get back to a higher weight, which will make weight loss and maintenance much tougher.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2017 21:17

And as I mentioned, excess calories from sugary crap, like those from alcohol, are preferentially stored around the midsection.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2017 21:20

That FD was fine, Goldfinch especially as you are easing into maintenance.
Many of us maintaining do 800 cal FDs - these are often sufficient on maintenance, whereas 800 would slow progress for most women in the weight loss phase

OP posts: