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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BigChocFrenzy · 21/10/2017 17:47

oops < smacks ipad > cycling can help build up leg strength, just give yourself time

OP posts:
rhiannonplas · 21/10/2017 18:32

Thanks again for the advice. DH and I have had a huge lunch out, so virtually no calories left today - this is why I'm counting on Nfds. It'll just be a bowl of soup before bed, but we did have a lovely time.

Does everyone here use MFP too? (I may have added you during previous failed 5:2 attempts). My username on there is busybusybee.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/10/2017 19:10

Whatever works for the individual
Most 5:2ers don't need to count calories on NFDs
However, for those who are not losing as expected, mfp is a helpful tool for retraining longterm habits - learning appropriate portion size, sensible amount of treats, alcohol.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2017 09:54

I having an FD today. Anyone else ?
Off to the gym now for lifting, then sauna

OP posts:
DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 22/10/2017 10:01

Wow BCF that's an impressive way to spend your sunday.
I have the obligatory roast dinner to cook (even though I don't eat meat lol) so not a good day for fasting, but if I was left alone for the day I can imagine it's a good day for a FD.
I did go to bodypump this morning Halo

Ollivander84 · 22/10/2017 10:01

Work today, 14:10 but another slightly higher cal today. I'll drop back down tomorrow Smile

1moreRep · 22/10/2017 10:08

well i closed the kitchen at 878 yesterday to make up for a big treat day on thursday.

no fast day for me- i was hoping to get to the gym but work is very busy so i don't think ill get the chance. still hoping to have a good sub 1500 cal day today thou

OuchBollocks · 22/10/2017 10:34

I went over my FD calories to the tune of a babybel and a small handful of grapes yesterday. Still I didn't go completely mad, so it's not a total loss. I suppose. Just really struggling with tiredness atm.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2017 15:12

Bodybuilding is a good start to a Sunday, DrK so you are clearly Halo

Sounds a sensible weekend plan, Ollivander, 1more

Don't worry about going a bit over TDEE ouch
Have you tried banking some calories on weekday NFDs, to relax a bit more at weekends ? That works well for many folk

OP posts:
FitbitAddict · 22/10/2017 16:01

Hi, I'm a part time 5:2 eater (it's not a diet!) and I restarted last Monday. I fasted Mon and Weds and after a blow out yesterday I'm fasting today too! Half term this week means I'm not sure what the week will bring, but I'm going to work out when I can do my two fasts. It's my 50th in March and I want to lose about 16lbs by then.

peachypips · 22/10/2017 19:10

I'm so disappointed with myself. I've eaten like an absolute pig all weekend. As soon as I am let off the leash I seem to binge. I can't seem to help myself. I'm really worried my fasting will be in vain if I keep eating the world on Sat and Sun. Currently 500 on Mon, Tues and Wed- can I get away with it? If not, is this a plan:

Mon- 500, no carbs, no sugar (run)
Tues- Anything, no carbs, no sugar
Wed- 500, no carbs, no sugar (run)
Thurs- Anything, no carbs, no sugar
Fri- 500, no carbs, no sugar (Pump)
Sat- Whatever (pump)
Sun- Whatever, no carbs, no sugar

Counting cals isn't an option for me- I'd rather do 500 every other day than do that!

peachypips · 22/10/2017 19:21

Maybe every other day is the best option for me.

rhiannonplas · 22/10/2017 20:49

I found I was doing that 'let off the leash' thing too peachy, which is why I've joined this thread.

My TDEE was an eye-opener, and I realised my NFDs were ruining the FDs.

In your situation:

  1. Don't beat yourself up - what's done is done
2 Work out what your overeating triggers were - lack of preparation, emotional eating (e.g boredom, stress) and take steps to tackle those.
  1. By all means try alternate days, but it sounds to me it's the NFDs you need to tackle (as do I!)
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2017 22:49

peachy All those "no carbs" days look very tough

  • very low carb is only able to reduce sugar / carb cravings if you do it every day and longterm

Your current system of depriving yourself of any carbs during the week and then allowing them at weekends sets you up for bingeing every Saturday, which probably carries on to Sunday
Also, you've recently done BSD, which is daily 800 low carb, so psychologically and physiologically you've been seriously retricting yourself for some time.

Trying to lose too quickly often ends badly
because it means being too tough, depriving yourself more than you can cope with.
So, do NOT increase the number of FDs

Tip: Move one of the FDs to Saturday or Sunday - it reduces any NFD damage

I recommend choosing either one of these 2 strategies - and keeping to it for at least 2 weeks:

  1. moving to 5:2 BSD, i.e. Mosely's low carb 5:2 version This means only 2 FDs of 800 cals, 3 meals and 5 NFDs with 3 good meals, NO snacks between

Important: Add the good starches he recommends for BSD, i.e. aim for 1 daily helping of beans, lentils or peas

Have 1-2 daily portions of low sugar fruit - e.g. berries, apple, pear - no dried fruit, no fruit juice.
Also add 1 portion of full-fat Greek yoghurt most days

OR 2) Keep 2-3 FDs low carb and 500 cals, but make the NFDs moderate carb, eating sensible portions (50-100g cooked weight) of healthy starches at 3 meals.
So oats, sweet potato, brown /red rice, quinoa rather than wheat.
Avoid added sugar, biscuits, cake, sweets, pizza, deep-fried food because these are typical triggers for binges
Again, NO snacks between meals

If you want chocolate, buy 90% cocoa chocolate (Lindt Mild Excellence is VG) healthy because this has lots of antioxidants but v little sugar. It's an acquired taste, but it grows on you. I have it in my porridge.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2017 22:50

Welcome, fitbit Smile
That looks a very doable target for your 50th

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2017 22:57

peachy If you are bingeing, EOD often makes it worse

  • a cycle of alternately fasting and bingeing may not lose any weight and would lead to regain as soon as you stop.

You need to learn how to eat "normally", i.e. around maintenance, on NFDs for good weight loss and also for longterm maintenance
It is better to relax and accept slower loss, rather than being too strict

OP posts:
AdalindSchade · 23/10/2017 06:48

Just checking in to say hi
I've done 5:2 before but not for a long time. I have 2 stone to lose and I'm just getting slowly fatter so have to change something. Today is my first fast day.
I'll go and have a look at the links in the OP a bit later.

1moreRep · 23/10/2017 07:45

well i had an awful day yesterday- really long day at work 745-00.00, had 4 large squishy cookies and a yorkie along with my chicken salad, olive bread and prepped thai curry

to be honest it was a difficult day at work (stressful and upsetting) and the whole team just had "let's eat while we can" attatiude. i'm going to the gym before i go in today and ill do a fast day- although i last ate at 23.30!

i was up at 6 with my kids (ex dropped them so i take to school) but will go the gym on the way to work before a minimum of a 12 hour shift

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2017 07:55

Welcome, adalind Smile Post whenever you need support

Such days happen to us all occasionally, 1more Don't worry about it, just move on

OP posts:
AdalindSchade · 23/10/2017 08:07

Thanks!
On my second cup of tea (I take a splash of milk so can allow myself a few) of the day and trying not to look in the fridge. I can do this!

OuchBollocks · 23/10/2017 08:12

FD here. I am meeting people for a picnic (Hmm eyes weather) but will be bringing a flask of hot soup so I can join in the meal for about 200 cal.

1morerep your shifts are awful, what do you do?

Good luck adalind and all Monday fasters :)

rhiannonplas · 23/10/2017 08:33

FD for me today and a SV of 4lb since I had that "oh God I have to sort myself out" moment last week.

Good luck to everyone this week.

quackingduck222 · 23/10/2017 09:43

I decided to do a mini FD yesterday as was over TDEE sat.

After sorting myself out this week I've lost 3.6 lbs.

Sunday is my weakness day as I would usually fall apart and binge but by doing a mini fast it really channeled my focus.

quackingduck222 · 23/10/2017 10:01

Just catching up on this thread. OMG peachy are you my twin?

I did the exact same thing last week. Eliminated carbs for the week. I was hoping it would give me a really quick weight loss. I got to Saturday and binged. Then it continued into Sunday. For me my mindset is it's ok il restart on Monday. I undid all the weight I lost during the week and it was minimal loss anyway not the big amount I was hoping. It was impossible to fast on it.

This week I'm eating more but just having a small mount of carbs on my evening meal.

Slow and steady for me from now on.

13.8 lbs remaining. My goal date is 1st week in December, I don't think it is doable but hopefully shouldn't be too far away.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 23/10/2017 11:20

Peachy yes I dis eat some cake Blush but not on my FD Halo

Fasting here.
I think half term adds an extra challenge to fasting.
But will stay strong.

Well done Quacking and Rhiannon inspirational successes.