5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

well done Peachy

Wow!! Good work peachy! I bet you're feeling very pleased with yourself and rightly so!!!

I did my usual Thursday weigh in two weeks into my 6:1 maintenance plan (with one normal fd and one mini fd) and sts for the second week running - actually dropped a quarter of a lb from last week. I'm thinking this is a good sign that I should be able to maintain on 6:1

Well done on your SV, peachy
On IF WOEs, like 5:2, your muscle is preserved, so any loss is fat, plus retained water
A better body composition - lower % fat, higher % muscle - is a good pointer to lower metabolic age.

Mug of bouillon for me. Very hungry after that Pilates class instructor was a sadist

I am desperate to go to bed but have a last minute baking commitment so instead of having an early night I'm making a large chocolate cake which is wafting its aroma unhelpfully from the oven.

FD closed at about 510 kcal. Will be an interesting weigh in tomorrow as I've eaten TDEE on all 5 NFDs this week, which I don't normally manage to do. I shall update in the morning...

DrK that's just torture

Torture DrK - hope you'll get to enjoy some cake tomorrow! Well done on a successful fd!

Good luck with tomorrow's weigh in Bug - sounds like you've had a very good week so fingers crossed!

So, as predicted, an interesting weigh in this morning. I'm UP 2lb!!! Nooooo.

That makes me think my calculated TDEE of c.1700 is too high for me. As I said last night, this week I have eaten TDEE on all 5 NFDs, whereas normally I thrown in a mini-FD (1000ish kcal) plus eat about 15-20% on at least a couple of days. Up until now that has resulted in 1-3lb steady loss per week.

Maybe it was the type of calories used to get to TDEE? Most days were ok, but there were a couple of sweeter treats thrown in there some days.

It's my birthday this weekend so lots of social occasions planned and no opportunity to rectify the 'damage', but I'll be back on track next week.

^ should say 15-20% less than TDEE

I dared to weigh in this morning. Very poor show of a 5lb loss in a month 😂. However, it could have been worse and I know to try harder

5lb is around 1lb a week. That's a decent steady loss. If you keep it up it'll be nearly another 10lb by Christmas.

HLBug you would need to have seriously overeaten to gain 2lbs of fat, it sounds like there could be water retention etc at play too?

Bug < soothing > 2lb fat would take about 7,000 extra calories, which you know you didn't consume
Sounds like a temporary blip, probably due to water retention, as ouch says

Since you've been losing 1-3 lb per week, you've lost a fair bit quite quickly. So, it could also be a plateau

I remind people to look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, because fluctuations in % water, undigested food etc can easily disguise 1lb fat loss
So, give any dietary change needs at least 2-3 weeks before you decide if it works or not
I suggest you try for at least another week

wrt TDEE, calculate at one exercise level lower than you think, as Mosely recommends
However, it is still only a theoretical average over the population.
So if you don't lose after 2-3 weeks, you can tweak it back to nearer your old system

That's a good SV, DrK You should be pleased with yourself !
It fits the 1lb weekly average
Also, you haven't been too strict, so it should be a sustainable WOL for you

Ok. I've definitely not had 7000 extra calories. So water poo seems like the most likely scenario. How annoying though!!

May I join? A lifestyle change, plus the menopause, has unhelpfully pushed up my weight and I've been doing the '2' bit of 5:2 successfully, but lack of portion control, emotional eating, and generally being someone who loves food and drink has meant I've actually gained weight. I've also made a change to being pescatarian, but I know I'm eating too much cheese and carbs as a result.

I'm not going back to eating meat, so the only way is to track calories on NFD's - boring, but necessary.

Let's keep in touch!

I agree Dr, that's a nice steady loss.

I always say if your

Sorry,

I always say if your not watching your weight your gaining it's true for me anyway.

I've just been reflecting on my 5 days of restart and I'm pleased. Been keeping well within TDEE. Nailed 2 fast days and feel so much better in myself.

I've just tried a low calorie ready meal from asda as I've been really busy today. I had chicken jalfrezi came in at 332 cals plus cauli rice and it was pretty nice. Pricey with the rice but will definitely get some more in.

Having a naughty Indian for tea tomorrow, but by pulling back a bit today and also on Sunday let's hope that's enough damage limitation.

Relax, bug It's a blip, or worst case a plateau after your earlier loss

Welcome, Rhiannon
There's quite a few of us who are successful longterm maintainers on 5:2, after joining to combat pre/meno/post
Fish is very healthy protein; no need for meat if you don't want it.

Exercise
HIIT and lifting / resistance training tend to help more at our life stage than long medium intensity runs or swims
If you don't exercise. at least aim for 20-30 mins walk per day

Do NOT eat back exercise calories that your gadget claims
FDs have NO allowance for exercise cals

On NFDs you can optionally allow for exercise by setting your activity level to one below what you think
If you don't count cals on NFDs - most people don't - then do NOT reward yourself with extra food. It's one reason why exercise can sometimes sabotage weight loss.

Suggestions to help NFDs, i.e. retrain "normal eating"

• NO snacking ever - no grazing either
  Snacks keep insulin raised, increase hunger,increase total calories - even "healthy" snacks like veg or fruit
  Eat meals, at least 4 hours apart, no calories between (from food or from drink)
  Have fruit, alcohol, treats only as part of a meal

• Keep within NHS alcohol levels
  Your liver stops the fat-burning process until all the alcohol toxins have been processed

• Excess calories from alcohol or added sugar are stored preferentially around the waist, particularly so once meno changes have started.
  So be sensible about treat portion & frequency too.

• Start each day with water and keep drinking through the day.
  Try to keep fizz, even diet fizz, to within 1 glass or 330 ml can per day

• Enjoy your fish on at least 3 days per week, more if you like. Oily fish, white fish, shellfish are all excellent
  On the other days:
  have eggs or boost beans, lentils & peas - proven to help blood sugar control in many folk.
  Do you like falafel ?
  Have full-fat natural Greek yoghurt, e.g. with berries for pud. Avoid flavoured yoghurts and commercial fruit compote - high sugar.

• Cheese is very healthy in moderation - low carb gurus recommend no more than 50g hard cheese per day, so I use that limit as a rough guide for average NFD limit i.e. 200 cals total cheese of all kinds
  Check you know what that total looks like

• Nuts & seeds too - keep within 40g daily total, e.g. 30g nuts+10g seeds

• Starchy carbs - watch portion size.
  Total per meal that works for most folk is within about 100g cooked weight, so if you have double carbs that's 50g each. If your starch is bread, that's 2 medium slices.
  Be sensible about butter too - spread it thinly.
  Vary your starches to reduce wheat (bread, pasta) Have e.g. oats, sweet potato, potato, brown / red rice, quinoa, also rye bread

Thanks bigchoc. I'm saving your advice on my phone. Too late for tonight as I'm downing a G&T, but it's accounted for.

My joints probably wouldn't like HIIT, but I'm trying to up my other exercise and will get a weights programme from my gym.

To answer your question - Yes, I love falafel.

I work from home, don't think I could cope without tea and coffee with skimmed milk during screen breaks - do I have to give these up? 😥

Morning
Seen 14st 6 on the scales today for the first time (starting weight 16st 10)
Having a higher cal day today but still doing 14:10 as I'm working all day

Congrats ollivander that's a fantastic loss so far. Enjoy your slightly higher cal day today. FD here for me. On track for 850 cals, which I'll be happy with.

Great Singing that the 6:1 is working- gives us all hope!

Dr - did you have some of the cake?

Wow Ollivander, that's fantastic!

Hi new people (am also relatively new). Had a 1000 day yesterday instead of a 50 day, so having TDEE today and then another 1000 cal day tomorrow to get myself back into the deficit. 500 on Mon/Wed/Fri next week.

Happy Saturday folks.

1700 cals and I'm stuffed. Didn't manage to get to TDEE but not a bad go!

Congrats on your SV, Ollivander New territory
1700 is fine for your high cal day if you genuinely feel full

Rhiannon If you belong to a gym, then spin classes can be HIIT or general cardio and fat-burning. Either is good.
Much gentler on the joints than most other cardio - in fact cycling can help mild joint problems and don't have to be
Just mention to the spin trainer that you won't do any standing up bits

Also, strength exercises like press-ups or barbells can be HIIT: short intensive effort for each set, with short breaks between sets to catch your breath

If the skimmed milk in hot drinks makes this WOE sustainable, then that's a reasonable compromise.
Save any biscuits for mealtimes though