5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

1.5 weekly FDs is fine if you are worried about 6:1, goldfinch
Try out any system for 2-3 weeks, as that is the time it needs for a realistic assessment
Remember: you want to maintain, not lose'.
Also, fluctuating a couple of lb up & down during the week is normal at Happy Weight

Been a bit haywire this week with sick kid, not sleeping, etc, but I'm determined to get back on top of things with a fast day today. It's a hard time of year with it getting so dark. At least my weight has STS for two weeks.

Thanks for the advice BCF - I just don't feel quite ready to jump straight into a 6:1 so this feels like a good way to ease in and test the water to see how my body reacts - I'll follow this for a couple of weeks and see how I get on! Very wise words about fluctuations of a couple of lb being normal at happy weight. I definitely need to work on accepting that!

Sorry to tear you're having a tricky week MShip but very encouraging that you've STS despite it!

There's a huge plate of pastries in the kitchen at work that I'm currently ignoring but my tummy is rumbling! Determined to stick to my mini-fd plan though!

Morning all,

Lots of NSVs to read today- very encouraging.

Fasting today and have just got my period so am grumpy!

Bovril for lunch, 200ml milk and a 310 cal ready meal with kale later.

It's so much easier when you are busy!

Feeling cross with my Bovril. Focusing on tomorrow and what I'll have for lunch then to help.

Hi peachy I'm on my period too, it definitely makes fasting harder. Off to the pool now, a short swim always cheers me up.

3hr ride on my horse done. Definitely soak in the bath time!

FD here. I've stayed the same for a couple of weeks. Am feeling good, if tired, today.

I go back to work in January and I'll be on shifts as well, fortunately no nights this time. I'd like another 8lbs off by then ideally.

I'm feeling super pleased with myself as it's Wednesday and I'm on my 2nd FD. I've always been a late in the week faster but I needed a shake up.
After last weeks terrible effort I'm definitely back on track and feel my heads now back in it.

I'm feeling good, great nights sleep and felt good this morning too, not normally a morning person.

The downside is I have been absolutely freezing since Monday.

Yeah!! Go quacking! Good to hear you're back in the game!

Mini fd done here. Felt really light headed and yuck this afternoon so broke the no snack rule and had a couple of crackers with Marmite on and then homemade fish pie for tea. Planning to weigh in tomorrow and crossing fingers that I will have sts!

You're back in the fasting swing, duck
Stay focused the next few weeks and you'll soon be segueing into your maintenance plan.

Anyone on totm, remember your body naturally retains water at this time, so avet your eyes from scales or belts
Avoid the totm carb monster and you should find that water is released again after your 1st FD following totm, maybe along with a sneky 1lb fat.

Nearly done, Wednesday fasters
If you've finished eating, have a glass of water, then clean your teeth to reduce temptation
How about pampering your bod with an early night, to maximise fasting benefits

Early night for you too, Maz and anyone else recovering from illness

We all have days like that goldfinch. Best to eat something as if your anything like me that's when the temptation kicks in and then bad things happen.

Early night here, I've cranked the heating up and walking round with my big blanket with arms whilst DHs in shorts and t shirt. Oops.

hi all

does anyone find the non fasting days harder ? ive had a good day but had some toblerone but kept to the plan despite that- i do need to figure out my calorie intake thou as i can't take the excersize calories off as they are 600 a day

1more Many folk find NFDs hard

Mosely intended NFDs to be "normal" eating days that would maintain weight, i.e. averaging TDEE
Howevr, in rl, many folk have got used to eating far more than their body needs
Hence on NFDs, they dat back some, or all, of the FD deficit

One hidden advantage of 5:2 is that the 5 NFDs give us the opportunity throughout the weight loss phase to retrain our "normal'` eating.
This is essential fot maintenance, after any diet

I recommend you calculate TDEE, as a rough #calories averaged over the 5 NFDs: Calc TDEEE*

To account for exercise, Mosely recommends in this calculation using one activity level lower than you think, as most people overestimate duration of full intensity

Then do a week of mfp, to check your weekly calorie deficit - 3,000 cals gives around 1lb loss
Many folk have found mfp to be a shock / reality check on portion size and amount of treats, alcohol etc
It shows up hidden calorie bombs

Many 5:2ers don't need to mfp longer than 1 week; others find it helpful as "training wheels" to develop the new habit of eating within TDEE

Those with quite a lot to lose:

I suggest you recalculate your TDEE after about every stone loss

Also, if you wish to speed up loss, you can calculate TDEE of your goal weight and aim for this on 1 or more NFDs per week

• a useful tactic to getting used to the much lower amount your body will need to maintain at goal

However, as I advised Ollivander : do eat your full TDEE on at least 1 day per week.
It helps boost metabolism and makes the WOE more sustainable

14:10 today, and a Pilates session later
Breakfast - banana pancakes (egg, banana) with Greek yoghurt and a few strawberries
Lunch is a bit random as using stuff up! Having boiled eggs, sliced ham, cucumber, hummus and a few grapes

Ollivander84 i like those banana pancakes. I started doing them when DD was a baby. A bit of cinnamon gives them a nice kick :)

I had a really good FD yesterday, finished on 875 cal (but less in practice as DD saw my dinner, said "mmmm scrambled egg" and demolished half of it ) but then fell asleep putting the DC to bed. Don't know what time it was but it was before 8.30 Weighed this morning and another 2lb off, so that's 12st 8lbs and well under my pre pregnancy weight. My fat distribution is totally different to how it was before the children though.

Slinking back in as I strayed from the path. Always forget that my weight flies up the week before my period, and got totally disheartened and thought "screw it all"! Weight dropped when period arrived enough to get me motivated again and two FDs this week has got me to 12st13 - that's 12lbs down since 9 September. My goal was to be 12st something by this Friday, with a second goal of 12st7 by mid November. Hoping to keep motivated now to achieve that!

I will be making banana pancakes for a nfd breakfast treat tomorrow, thanks for that Olivander
FD here. As always, a bit tough first thing but I plan to have lentil soup for a lunch and endamame bean salad for supper.
I haven't managed to quit the booze this week but I've been moderate and with it and I've not had any on my FD obviously.
With the pathetic excuse of lots of stress and little sleep I was a piggy yesterday and I haven't had time to go to the gym and I really felt like just quitting and not fasting today but your accounts are all so encouraging and I know if I fast today and do some squats and press ups I'll feel better at least in myself.

Banana pancakes sometimes I do add a spoon of oats or peanut butter powder which is nice
Got another recommendation which is cully and sully chicken and veg soup (Tesco), the entire container is 220 calories and it's really nice

Well done on your SV, ouch and on getting well below pre-preg weight
Shape: I recommend short sessions of lifting and HIIT, even the 2-5 minute Fat Blasts (at home) on a few days per week.

Well done on your SV too, Ginger and hitting your milestones.
It's important to look at progress over a period of weeks
Never give up because of a temporary blip, or even a few weeks plateau - almost everyone has them, on any WOE, on their way to goal.

DrK No need to give up alcohol on NFDs, just work on keeping it within NHS guidelines,
This helps keep total calories "treat" calories to a reasonable % of the total
Also, your liver prioritises processing the alcohol toxins and shuts off fat-burning, often for several hours or even all day, until it has finished this.

Enjoy your Pilates, Ollivander

Much needed! Rode the horse for 3hrs yesterday and feeling a little stiff

Hi everyone. Despite period had a big SV this morning. I haven't weighed myself since my first initial weight of 12 stone 1 pound.

Weighed in at the gym this morning and am 11 stone 12 pounds. It breaks down the weight as well and it's been all fat loss not muscle. My metabolic age is lower than my actual age for the first time since I started at my gym 3 years ago.

When I started the 8 wk BSD I weighed 13 stone 3 pounds. Woop!

Congratulations peachy

well done peachy