5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your SV, confused
If you resist the carb cravings at totm, then you should see further loss once that's over

I'm having my usual Saturday FD. Anyone else ?

FD yesterday was fine. Thought I was at risk of caving and snacking after doing bedtime but accidentally avoided that by falling asleep on the bed with DD at 8pm can't work out why I'm so tired, my eyes are hanging out my head today. Stayed the same.on the scales, well maybe a few oz off, but fairly sure some of that will be water retention.

Trying to answer as best I can!
I don't eat bread apart from the odd wrap
No alcohol, no fruit juice, don't eat potatoes, pasta or rice or nuts or flavoured yoghurts or cereal
Weakness is chocolate or cake or pizza but if I have a pizza I have to be really careful with which one (usually a 600 cal one) and eat not much the rest of the day
I use MFP for my calories. Meals are hard at work because I don't get much time to eat so I do tend to snack have a mini meal

Today is

Lunch - teriyaki skinny chef kitchen meal (360 cals)

Tea - cucumber, mini hummus pot, ham slices, boiled eggs, apple

Mini meal for late in the night - protein shake, some Greek yoghurt and berries

Drinks - tea no sugar and water

Supplements of omega 3, CLA, turmeric and multi vitamin

Ollivander Your menu today isn't bad and also a 600-cal pizza portion is fine as a treat that fits in your plan.
However, my tweaks would be:

• Aim for 5 portions veg and 1 portion fruit. More veg would help keep you fuller, hence reducing the temptation to snack or have sweet junk.
• I recommend adding non-starchy veg (no sauce) to lunch.
• Add some salad to tea; dress with vinegar & olive oil
• You don't need the protein shake; try swapping them for some less processed food, e.g. flaked almonds or oats with your yoghurt & berries - eating your calories is more filling than drinking them. Add say some carrot sticks too.

I assume you are not consuming any calories within the 14-hr window, including veg ? - or drinking any, including milky tea ?

To lose weight, you need a weekly calorie deficit.
Without FDs, that has to come from daily reduced calories within your time window
Unfortunately, the body is very good at hanging on to its fat, so many women find they need a daily deficit of 500+ calories
Dr Michelle Harvie's work on middle-aged overweight women quoted up to 830 deficit for some !

As you use mfp, have you calculated your weekly deficit ? Theoretically on 5:2, there is a weekly deficit for the "average person" of 3,000 cals, which produces about 1lb per week loss
Is your weekly deficit about this ?

I know you don't want to do 5:2, but have you considered some 5:2 variations, e.g. adding a weekly FD of 800 cals to your current system ?

Another issue may be sweet carbs - try to 2:5 them i.e. only on 2 days per week and only a sensible portion. The problem is that a chunk of cake you / friends cut can be 500-800 cals, with a few days worth of sugar

And of course, on work days, do plan your day's menu in advance, to remove snacks
As I posted: without FDs and relying solely on eating window, it really helps not to eat more than 3 times per day.Twice would be better

I'm actually eating below my BMR and well below my TDEE which is around 1700 cals (BMR that is) and I eat approx 1400 (sometimes a bit less)

I have the protein shake as sometimes I can't physically eat (emergency services, I have to swig and go!)
Should have said I had a bag of steamed veg with the chicken meal too
And yes, no cals in that window - if I'm desperate I have a herbal tea, usually mint and chamomile. Water of course as well

Sorry if that sounds like I'm whining
I guess I thought because I have so much to lose it would be a bit easier? I sit at work and watch people eat shite all day every day and still look slimmer than me 😭

olliv i'm emergency services too and shifts are a killer! i find that my diet goes to pot often when it's team scoff or cakes, i'm trying thou

Morning all!
Had a very luxurious NFD yesterday with a 3 course meal at my friend's 90th.

Today surfing for most of the day which I'm looking forward to and is such good exercise! Good for the soul too.

Can't fast today due to surfing but doing Mon/Wed/Fri in the coming week.

Decided to limit my nuts to ten per day on NFDs and cheese to 50g.

Ollivander iirc, before 14:10 you were also eating this low amount daily. So, this has been for several months now.

Weekly fasts as in 5:2, 4:3 or ADF keep up your metabolic rate, hence your real TDEE, because of the contrast FD / NFD and also because you would be eating full TDEE on one or all NFDs

A prolonged period of daily calories restriction well below TDEE, especially below BMR, may cause your body to resist further weight loss by dialling back metabolic rate.
With those who have been on 14:10 or 16:8 the whole time, this rarely happens, except for a few hard exercisers who are already very lean.
However, especially if your loss was already slow before you started, this may be why your loss is so slow / sts

imo, you need to first maximise your metabolic rate and TDEE

Recommendations:

• Keep 3 days per week the same as now `the other 4 days, change to TDEE, 1000 cals, TDEE, 1000 cals i.e. on any 2 days per week, you eat your full TDEE on any other 2 days, you eat 1000 cals

As you get used to 1000 cals and feel comfortable, you could alternate the whole week TDEE / 1000 cals

• Exercise suggestions: Build up to strength sessions 2-3 times per week, but only 20-60 minutes per session.

If you do cardio, cut out any prolonged sessions, just have HIIT sessions, no more than twice per week, 60 minutes - shorter is better.
Zumba, spin, martial arts are typical HIIT classes that may help - the music & the company can reduce stress levels
If you don't do cardio, try one 2-5 minute HIIT Fat Blast, on 3 days per week
Or just have a 20-30 minute walk on non-training days, relaxing and fresh air

20-30g nut limit (or your 10 nuts) and 50g cheese limit sound good ideas, peachy
Both healthy foods, but in moderation

Thanks Big, that's interesting. Going to have a look at it
I do spin class (30 mins) which I love, Pilates for my core, ride my horse and weights sessions but still fairly light/short due to my back, max is 60kg deadlift
And yes, dieting on same cals since June, fairy quick loss of 2st 2lbs then stalled for a few weeks now

Oh balls everyone. You know when you feel good, hair done, nice outfit, then you see a photo of yourself? :( Back on it tomorrow. Long way to go before I look half bloody presentable :(

I like spinning too Olli - it gives you a real buzz.

I'm sure you looked fine Ouch - we judge ourselves so hardly in photos and when we are static we look bigger.

I've had a fantastic day surfing- my entire body feels like it's been beaten by a big stick. My mate took a photo of us on the beach, which filled me with dread, but when I saw it I realised how much weight I've lost. I felt proud of myself. I'm in the middle- a true mesomorph BCF!!

Great happy photo with your mates, peachy and well done on your shape NSV

ouch I bet the others thought you looked pretty good - we are each our own harshest critic
You are making steady progress and that bod has delivered a lot for you, including DC

Ollivander If you don't feel ready to add a 1000 miniFD, then just add a TDEE day , with 3 good meals, no sweet junk, to your current system
I think your metabolism needs a kickstart and a clear contrast in days, not the same daily reduced calories for months
On any form of longterm IF, I always recommend people have at least one day per week at TDEE

btw, Fasting has a very different mechanism to a reduced calorie diet, which is why fasting is the technique to rest your metabolic rate and your weight set point.

Yeah that does make sense. Today was a good day. For lunch I had boiled egg, ham, carrot sticks, cucumber sticks and a blob of hummus. And for my mini meal, apple and a couple of cashews
2 meals and one mini meal in total and 16:8 today

My before is horrifying so I will put it as my after pic so you all aren't subjected to it
But I've been doing side on photos

Morning Monday fasters

Good shape change NSV, Ollivander - that's lost bodyfat

morning ive just done 5k run and i'm postponing my fast day until tomorrow

Hi everyone.

I'm back here ashamed and ready to confess my sins. I've been meaning to post for ages now and type a post out then delete it as I'm so embarrassed.

I fell of the wagon towards the end of the school holidays and stopped fasting and eating junk and the pounds piled back on.

I rectified this by hopping back on the wagon and had a tremendous first week of fasting and being very very good on NF days and managed to loose a huge 8lbs in a week.

I got complacent, stopped fasting and am now weighing in 10lbs heavier.

I did restart last Monday but tried 4 times to fast and just couldn't do it. The closest I got was 900 calories.
Had all the will in the world to fast this weekend and ended up binging and I'm weighing in heavier this week to my restart last week.

So annoyed with myself but had a wake up call this morning in the fact my newish jeans no longer fit.

Back on track and am aiming for a full FD today.

Weighing in at 9 st 1.4 and 5ft 3.5

Ollivander you have a great figure, I wish my tummy looked like that!! And a noticeable difference from your before picture

quacking welcome back be kind to yourself. A 900 cal day is still much better than a day of eating to (or beyond) TDEE. You'll be back in the swing of things in no time.

I've had 4 days of eating my full TDEE this weekend (normally try and do a mini-FD on one day). It's been lovely to relax a bit now I'm at pre-baby weight. I'm still carrying on to loose at least another stone though - first FD of the week tomorrow.

Good luck to any Monday Fasters - and I hope everyone manages to stay safe and dry through Ophelia! It's absolutely vile here so I don't intend to go outside at all, brr...

Haven't had a chance to catch up on all the weekend posts but have seen your impressive before and after shot Ollivander and a lovely skinny waisted surfing shot peachy!!

Also good to see quacking back! No room for shame here - you're back on it and we're here to support you!

I'm fasting today and just wanted to share my latest discovery - itsu crystal noodle cup. 136 calories and really tasty - though perhaps not ideal for eating at your desk (a bit slurpy!) I had the Thai yum yum flavour and it was indeed yummy. You can add things to it too - veg, cooked chicken etc. Not as nice as something freshly made but ok for a stand-by fd meal!

Morning < yawns >
Another late shift for me. Have planned my cals out to try and hit a bit higher, so 1380 today

eek.
Tres naughty weekend especially wine.
But having a pretty good FD so far.
Water, black coffee, herbal tea and one mug of marmite drink.
Probs have veg soup for supper.
Also, ache from yesterday's bodypump which I'm taking as a positive.

Olivander awesome.

Welcome back, duck
No need to be embarrassed and at 9st 1lb, with 10lb or so to lose, that's not very much to haul back.

Lessons learned:
You know now that you need to stick to a maintenance plan for lofe
Also that before you go on holiday and break from fasting, write down the date of your 1st FD afterwards

My thoughts:

• Do what is sustainable and avoid the mindset that you need to be perfect If that means easing into fasting again with 900 FDs, that's fine You could start with 3 miniFDs (

< Passes black coffee to Ollivander >
It may sound counterintuitive, but if you are increasing cals to boost metabolism, you would do much better to increase to TDEE on just one day,
rather than increase a smallish amount each day.

Good luck on your FDs, DrK, goldfinch

That's good you feel relaxed now, bug at pre-baby weight - that was a really major milestone for you