Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2017 12:24

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 12/10/2017 21:53

Poor bollocks
I'm fasting tomorrow too. I'm just having soup, tea and water. CBA to think about food

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 13/10/2017 06:32

Good luck to all fellow fasters.
Friday is a challenge, but I'm hoping it's a good way of avoiding the vin blanc.
Off to the gym

ashley0710 · 13/10/2017 08:01

Hi I have a question...
Is a fast day 24 hours? So say if I had my fast day today at 9 am, would that be 500 cals until 9 am tomorrow?
Sorry if a thick question
Also if I'm only just starting out is it two fast days per week?
Thank you :-)

HLBug · 13/10/2017 09:09

Hi ashley I just treat a FD as 500 (ish) calories across my eating window for that day. So maybe a light lunch and small dinner, or a larger dinner with nothing else during the day, depending on how I'm feeling really. It's your total deficit across the week that's important, although (and BCF will be able to tell us more) I think there is evidence that the longer your actual Fast period (i.e. between meals) then the more that can benefit fat burning? I double up 5:2 with 16:8 (or 14:10) most days to keep me right.

SV here today - another 2lb off (11st 3lb) so now officially pre-baby weight, woohoo. Next mini-goal is to get into the 10 stone club Smile

HLBug · 13/10/2017 09:11

ashley if you're just starting out there is lots and lots of useful information in the OP at the top of the thread that should also help.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 13/10/2017 09:16

Well done HLbug

TheMShip · 13/10/2017 09:57

Good luck today, Ouch! I crashed out of my 4:3 attempt, ended up about 1000 calories on Wednesday and had a terrible night with my toddler last night, so I'm just going to have a healthy NFD today instead. AF due tonight anyway. I'll come back to it next week.

CroakingCrocus · 13/10/2017 11:03

Bah no weight off this week. Might need to use MFP next week to ensure I stay on track. Hope everyone else does better.

MShip - that's the right thing to do. It's so much harder when you're tired & hormonal.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 11:52

Welcome ashley Smile there are no daft questions here
Lots of info in the OP too, especially the "How to Start" section, with links & FAQs below

An FD is really about 36 hours:
you have supper on the NFD before
then all day on the FD you have 500 calories total (600 for blokes or for TDEE>2400)
then you have breakfast the next morning on your NFD

On 5:2, you choose any 2 FDs per week to do this, usually non-consecutive as that's much easier for most folk.

Mship Some folk find 4:3 too tough, especially if sleep-deprived / stressed
I recommend waiting until after totm finished, then try alternating a week 4:3 with a week 5:2
If you find that 5:2 is what you personally can sustain longterm, then it's better to stick with that and be patient.

A week on mfp can help highlight any calorie bombs, or portion size.
However, few people lose every week, because scales can't reliably show swings in water retention (oftenhormonal)

  • sometimes it's sts one week, then 2lb drop the next

Look at the trend over weeks: if you've a fair bit to lose to reach healthy BMI, then mfp would probably help, to retrain your habits
If you're already within heathy BMI, then your loss is likely to be slower and mfp may show you are already eating & drinking around TDEE

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 11:56

oops, Blush forget to say: last 2 paras were for crocus

OP posts:
CroakingCrocus · 13/10/2017 12:47

BCF - I'm BMI 22.6 which is healthy for a white female. I just really wanted another lb off this week as my FDs this week felt hard.

Ah well.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 14:38

crocus At your healthy BMI, your rate of loss is likely to be slower than for most folk here, so your NFDs are probably fine.
Your FDs may possibly seem harder, because you have less body-fat available for fuel
Relax, try to be patient

OP posts:
peachypips · 13/10/2017 15:02

Chocca girl checking in! (obscure reference)

Fast Day today. Wed was going well until birthday cake appeared so jacked in the FD.

I'm struggling not to binge on NFDs. I don't eat many carbs or sugar but I tend to eat loads of cheese, nuts and ff Yoghurt which I think are taking me over my tdee.

HLBug · 13/10/2017 19:22

NFD today and had a yummy dinner of venison burger and sweet potato falafel. Nomnomnom...

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 20:17

peachy Overdoing nuts, cheese etc is a classic problem of low carbing and not feeling satisfied.
For any low carbers having this trouble, or not losing well...

Low carb guru Dr Michael Eades wrote a blog post on that, years ago, saying it is a problem that some folk do not feel full on low carb
In a footnote in the Atkins New Diet Revolution, iirc page 57 in my hardcopy, Dr Jeff Volek (who took over after Atkins died) said that in practice women low carbing needed to stay within about 1600 cals to lose, with a higher allowance for men.

I would suggest reducing the nuts & cheese - Atkins / Volek suggest 30 g nuts and 40g cheese per day -
keeping yoghurt to max 150 ml per day
and replacing with moderate portions (< 100g cooked weight per meal ) of healthy starchy carbs, e.g. steelcut oats, sweet potato (not mash) quinoa, brown/red/wild rice.
I'd avoid added sugar and wheat though - i.e. bread, pasta - because these are what most easily put on fat for those who need to be cautious with carbs.

Also boosting veg and beans (no sauce), lentils, peas and having 1-2 portions fruit daily

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 20:17

Wow, that sounds blissful, bug

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 13/10/2017 20:24

5pm - 3am work shift today, doing 14:10 as usual Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 20:25

DrK When you lift weights, your body changes and medical professionals notice

  • they usually comment that they can tell I do a lot of sport.

e.g. I had my flu jab today and as always, as soon as I took my jacket off, the nurse, who didn't know me, looked at my biceps and said immediately "don't do sport this evening, no heavy exercise for the arms"

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2017 20:28

< shudders at night shifts > Do always prioritise getting plenty of sleep, Ollivander
Even more important on shift work, as your sleep may not be as deep during the day
Sleep - its quality & duration - can be an important factor in weight

OP posts:
Ollivander84 · 13/10/2017 20:39

Yep. I have stalled a bit. Am around 14st 8-9 every day, and have been for a few weeks. Struggling to cut calories more
Usually in bed for 4am and sleep until 1pm

confusedandemployed · 14/10/2017 08:21

Well done on the SV HLBug.
Tough week, af arrived Tuesday and with it the carb cravings. Only time of the month this is a problem for me.
1lb down as of yesterday though and FDs were fine. I had shakshuka for the first time on Thu. I didn't love it I have to admit. Does anyone have a failsafe recipe for it?

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 14/10/2017 08:47

I failed my second FD Blush
Hey ho. I'll keep on trying.
Body pump tomorrow

1moreRep · 14/10/2017 09:09

dr don't think of it as failing as you will have still reduced your usual calorie intake - maybe try to do a few days of very sensible eating

well i had a nsv- i can see my abs again! not completely but they are there!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2017 09:42

DrK We say FDs are postponed not failed Wink
If you ended up within 1000 cals, then that's a miniFD, which is still a calorie deficit

Aim for a healthy maintenance weekend: no snacking, concentrating on nutritious food, no junk. Do some exercise each day, even a walk
Maybe even throw in a miniFD (

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2017 09:56

Congrats on your abs NSV, 1more

Ollivander Have you looked at when and what you eat & drink on 14:8 ?

  • Snacks increase total cals, because people almost never eat sufficiently less at the next meal to compensate.
    Also, snacks keep insulin levels permanently high, which keeps hunger raised and also reduces the time you can be in fat-burning mode.

  • Weight loss in a reduced time window is usually better if you eat only twice during that time, i.e. cut out a meal and no snacking.
    However, if that is not sustainable, then eat 3 times and aim for good nutrition, with plenty of veg

  • Check how many of your cals are non-nutritious, i.e. biscuits, cake, sweets, crisps, pizza, deep-fried ........ Also booze cals

  • Avoid: fruit juice, flavoured yoghurts, flavoured porridge or cereals. Don't exceed 2 portions of fruit per day.

  • Have a green salad starter, with vinegar dressing - slows digestion and keeps you full for longer

  • Are you overdoing nuts & cheese ? Try munching raw carrots after a meal, for crunch

  • Healthy substitutes:
    Porridge or flaxmeal instead of breakfast cereal
    Brown / red rice or quinoa instead of white or fried rice
    Wholegrain / wholemeal bread instead of white - and be moderate with any butter. 2 slices max per meal.
    Boiled or baked potato, white or sweet, instead of chips or mash.

OP posts: