5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning everyone, first weigh in today and 6lbs lighter if only every weigh in was like the first but its good motivation not to go mad later.

evenflo if I'm honest I'd be feeling the same, it's so disheartening when you are putting all that effort and sacrifice in and not seeing the results. I'm sure someone who can properly advise will be along soon. As others have said, if you've not much to lose then it will take longer?

Going to try and not eat until lunch which I can usually happily do, saving even more cals for tonight. Happy fri all

Be strong resisting the cake ouch

A new all time low of 10 stone 13lbs!!!!

🎈🎉🎈🎉🎈

Well done calzone! It's awesome when you break a new barrier.

Even, in 3 weeks I'd lose 1.5lb, so I'd still class 2lb as a good loss.

6lbs is a huge loss anoldcharter! Well done on a good first week. Do you have a lot to lose, or do you think it's mostly water retention?

Congrats on your SV and alltime low weight, calzone !

Flow iirc, your TDEE is only 1400 - if so, that's why your are losing so slowly.
May I ask your BMI - sounds like you may are already be quite lean ?

However, you'd find this on any weight loss WOE - eating less than you burn is 90% of any weight loss plan, whether WW, low carb, vegan, whatever

On a low TDEE this is much harder. (It's the main reason men usually lose much more quickly on diets - much higher TDEE on average)

Someone on TDEE 2000 has a 3000 weekly calorie deficit, which fits the 1lb longterm weekly average on 5:2
A 1400 TDEE gives a weekly deficit of only 1800 cals

So, on a 1400 TDEE, you are doing ok to lose 2lb in 3 weeks

Tactics for those with v low TDEE

• Do 4:3, i.e. 3 FDs per week, to increase the deficit

• Go to ¼ TDEE on FDs, which was the original basis for 500 for women (2000/4) However this would be 350 cals for you, which may not be sustainable

• Or just be patient and accept it will take longer for you, but you'll get there in time

Great start, oldcharter and well done on your SV
(Flo, she'll have a much higher TDEE than you)

Well done on your SV, crocus
Sounds like you are getting into a better routine, which will help you

Well done to your DH with the intact nipples on his belt NSV, ouch
You know your job is much tougher

That sounded really odd wrt his nipple placement !!

Thanks choc, your replies always make me feel so much better! Although your name makes me think of my favourite food

My BMI is 22. Not super low in my opinion?

Yes I have at least 3.5 stone to lose

It will be tough with a low TDEE Even. I'm very lucky because my goal weight TDEE is 1800.

Stick with it anoldcharter. Some weeks will be tougher than others, and you might fall off the wagon, but keep chipping away at it and you'll get there. Take it one stone at a time. I lost 2.9 stone last time round, then piled it back on when I was pregnant. I've (nearly) lost 2 stone this time round.

The good side, as you see, charter is that you lose more quickly and soon start to see the difference in clothes fit.
Celebrate every stone and then jump in the air when you drop into a lower bmi class

Take heart from Maz and others who have dropped several stone on 5:2

flo bmi 22 isn't "too" low, but loss would be very slow - folk in the lower half of normal bmi often lose 1-2 lb monthly. So you had a good start

anoldcharter I need to lose 2.5 stone just to get into the healthy BMI category, so would probably need to lose 3.5 to be considered anywhere near 'slim', but 1.5 stone is around 10% of my body weight so that's my initial target. One day at a time, in a year from now we'll be so glad we started :)

A huge NSV for me today. This time last year I was the same weight I am now. I ordered some new jeans from Asda in a size 10. They didn't fit couldn't do them up and were far too tight in the calf.
Today I saw them again in asda and tried my luck and they fitted so of course I had to buy them. I've never been a size 10 on the bottom.

The only thing I can think is either I've lost it in different areas or the lower body toning is really working. Will check my measurements Monday.

I had a go at boxing today as I bought a punch bag for DH. Absolutely loved it so will add that into my routine. I've not bothered with C25k in last couple of weeks but boxing definitely got my heart rate up and got a sweat on. For me I get bored to easily so I like to mix it up a bit.

Thanks everyone and congrats on the svs and nsvs sticking with anything has always been my problem but fingers crossed this will be sustainable. In anticipation of the slight hangover tomorrow, what's the best way not to just want to stuff dirty carbs down my neck not drinking is not an option

Pint of water and 2 paracetamol before bed, lie in tomorrow with water by the bed so you can drink some before you get up, cool shower then a brisk walk when you can face it.

945 calories for the day. Given that the baby was un-put-down-able after his jabs, so the toddler got jealous and had a major temper tantrum, I would say that's good going. Teeth cleaning and bed now.

That's a very good FD under the circs, ouch

Well done on your jeans NSV, duck

Many 5:2ers find they are leaner than before at the same weight.
This is because 5:2/IF preserves muscle and burns only fat (plus water loss)
i.e. it changes your body composition.
Since muscle weighs less than the same volume of fat, you are physically smaller.

Note: On other diets, typically 25% of weight loss is lean mass

Also wrt jeans: 5:2/IF can help correct issues with insulin metabolism if you have any, which would help reduce waist

oldcharter Suggestions:
Have a meal before you drink, then NO snacking or nibbles. Just NO is easier than rationing on a night out.
Alternate each alcoholic drink with a glass of fizzy water, ice & a slice

Back again after a really challenging few months - lots of life stresses (that keep rearing up). The bad news is I have put on weight, although the good news is I'm still 2 1/2 stone lighter than I was when I started 5:2 last year.......but have definitely been struggling and anyone who recognises my name may remember I have a way to go to get back to the healthy BMI range, that I last was in many years ago.

Current plan is to focus on getting NFDs fully under control, no snacking, 3 healthy meals, no sugar/refined carbs, loads or water and veg and not restart FDs until have achieved the above for a good few weeks I think as recently FDs have failed and resulted in me overeating carbs.

Plan to catch up with the thread over the next few days as this weekend is jam packed and restart posting regularly. Well done to everyone for whom things are going well currently - it's a great feeling isn't it when we don't feel controlled by food - and I hope to be in that place again soon - as I've said on here before I am NOT giving up!

Can I join? I was doing 5:2 for a couple of months but went off track. I want to start again on Monday! I am currently 11st4. Would like to be 9st7. Would love to get down to 10st before my holiday in August.

Day 1 of holiday. Dinner yesterday was whopping pizza. Light base but probably over tdee! Left all outer edges of it, drank water instead of wine (been asked twice by group if I'm Teatotal! - just said I wasn't in mood for alcohol - and declined the included dessert on basis I was full. Which I was but as it's so hot here the ice cream was very very tempting!

Brekky today has been scrambled eggs and yoghurt although I mixed fruit and plain 50:50. Plan for each day is no snacking and avoid desserts, pastries and hopefully keep any weight I do put on away from my waist!

Welcome, moomin and good luck on Monday
Lots of tips & links under the "How to start" section of the OP

Good to see you again, clear
Sounds sensible to get NFD eating in order before fasting.
Especially if your TDEE is over 2000, you could also see if you do better with 4 slightly smaller meals per NFD

When you do start fasting, I suggest you try the variation with 3 weekly miniFDs instead of 2 FDs
i.e. Mon+Wed+Fri on up to 1000 cals

Good choices on vacation, Granny

That's very positive that you are still 2.5 stone lighter than before 5:2, clear
Some folk need a period of maintenance / recovery between losing big chunks of weight, because their body needs the time to adjust.
Also, you needed time for your appetite to adjust to what your smaller body burns
Just do this your way, at your pace