5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

All that is "banned" on FDs are alcohol and junk food - especially sugary treats, cake, biscuits etc

So, another good point about 5:2 is that on at least 2 days per week, your body has a rest from crap.

Hence, I recommend on FDs at least no diet coke because coke is basically a toilet-cleaner.

wrt other diet drinks:
Research, not related to 5:2, has found that for some people sweetened diet drinks spike their appetite. Others have no problem.

So, your choice.

However, try to drink water for most of your fluid intake on FDs
Jazz is up with ice & a slice in a pretty glass.

Last chance FD before holiday for me.

Woke up feeling a bit off - dizzy, nauseous and very very tired so don't feel much like eating anyway. Hoping it's not my ears as one has been slightly blocked for a little while - had labrynthitis a few years back and it's a lesser feeling of that. Need to pick up some insect repellent from the chemist so will get some travel-sickness tablets which is what was prescribed before and worked reasonably well.

Better get myself off the sofa and finish packing.

I hope you feel better before your flight, Granny

Do you have some filtered earplugs ?
Available from good chemists, they slowly equalize the pressure against your eardrum during ascents and descents, as the cabin pressure changes.

Also, if you think your nose may become blocked, you could try an over-the-counter decongestant nasal spray 30-60 minutes before takeoff and landing. Don't overdo those before / after flights, because in excess they can worsen symptoms

Thanks for the advice... I've had some fizzy diet drinks today but will resist next fd. Today has been hard and I'm starving after my chicken salad, got banging headache too

So I'm to weigh tomorrow after my 2nd fd?

Supposed to be my FD today but stuck at home with a poorly toddler so have struggled - sitting at 568 calories so far :(

Going to try and have nothing or very little for the rest of the day as can't face the thought of fasting Friday, Saturday or Sunday!

Not a great day for me today, was supposed to be a FD but have gone over 800cals because I have a migraine and my body just craves carbs when I get one

oldcharter tip to avoid headaches or weakness on FD:
glug a teasp Marmite from the jar (10 cals) It replenishes salt & minerals that can be lost on an FD, before you body adapts to fasting. Also Marmite boosts B vitamins.

Also, restrict diet drinks to at most one per FD - they may not hydrate you properly and may increase tendency to headache - so replace the others with water, fizzy water if you prefer

If you need some extra cals your first few FDs, it's ok - best to have a hard boiled egg on its own, or with a tomato. Avoid biscuits, sweets etc
Or have a hot beef Bovril (10 cals) before bed

Most folk weigh the morning after 2nd FD, but you could do this every 1 / 2 / 4 weeks, whatever you prefer.
Also monitor your waist every couple of weeks, measured for women at the narrowest point, about 2" above the navel. Waist sometimes shows quicker change than the scales

Sorry to hear about your head, Flo Would a teasp Marmite also help you, boosting minerals & B vits ?

Not long to go, kitkat, Flo, oldcharter, granny
After supper, drink water and then clean your teeth. It gives a fresh clean taste which reduces the desire to nibble and can also sometimes help a headache - but early night is best for that.

Thanks choc, I will give the marmite a go but sadly I've been plagued by migraines for years and nothing seems to help. Just have to forget about what I've eaten today and move on I guess...

I've been struggling with the idea of Mediterranean diet and been coming up with conflicting advice from google. But my mum has recently purchased 2 of MM books gut diet and the sugar diet recipe book and she's lent me the recipe book. I've just started reading it and I can now see it fits hand in hand with 5:2. I need to get my head round it but am willing to make a lifestyle change. It's very alien to what I've grown up with eg low fat everything, marg not butter, oils ect.

I've taken BCFs advice on ditching the Pepsi max and have 1pint per week. From now on I will buy cans.

I have switched to fizzy flavoured water instead. I'm hoping that's a improvement. I've also ditched 1/2 coffee intake and replaced it with green tea.

The one thing that has blown my mind from the book is potatoes are pretty much out forever. Most of our meals do include potatoes.

All the meat and fish listed I like (rarely have it) but I think I can adapt. But I was hoping to get some family friendly meals but non of the fish listed my husband will eat.

I'm going to keep ploughing through tho.

Had a fantastic night away, thanks Granny. How did the FD go today? I'm worried about how I'll cope on holiday too. I don't want to undo my hard work, but at the same time I'd never manage holiday FD!

How did the rest of your FD go kitkat? Hope your toddler is on the mend.

Today has been an unexpected FD, of sorts. Had a pastry for breakfast and a huge salad for lunch and that's it. Wasn't hungry and I've a food heavy weekend coming up, so the kitchen's closed!

Thanks big choc but (not envy!) at marmite - yuck...
Period has just arrived which probably explains real reason for my banging headache so I'm off to bed with some paracetamol and hot water bottle. Hope everyone else has managed well today.
Thanks again for all the great advice

duck Mosely's low carb Mediterranean diet is for losing weight, or for maintaining loss if you are insulin resistant

If you aren't insulin resistant, then you don't need low carb to maintain, you can do the classic mediterranean diet which contains lower GI starchy carbs
i.e. you can add wholegrains, oats, buckwheat, quinoa, brown / red rice, sweet potatoes to Mosely's low carb Med

However, the classic Med Diet still cuts out sugary / carby junk (even homemade) - sweets, cake, biscuits, pies, pastries, deep-fried good, etc - except on v special occasions.
And alcohol must be within NHS guidelines

Don't try to do FDs on holiday, just relax.

Advice:

• Before you leave, fix the date of your next FD, which should be your regular day on the first week back
• No snacking between meals
• keep sweet treats sensible and have only as part of meals
• Enjoy your meals, but don't gorge until you feel uncomfortable
• keep within NHS alcohol limits
• Drink plenty of water
• Have a daily walk or swim

btw, no reason to eat marge or low fat spreads instead of butter

I can follow all of your holiday advice BC, except the alcohol guidelines! Honestly, I know I enjoy the first glass and there's no need to drink anymore. Anything more than a glass and I wake with a headache the next day. But it's too easy to say yes to another drink!

So I'm 3 weeks in and when all of the ups and downs with my weight are taken into account I've lost just over 2 pounds.

I must admit I'm disappointed with this because it has been a huge effort just to lose what I think is a small amount.

Today I be woken up starving and demotivated. Not sure I can stick this out for much longer

Sorry that was a bit whingey, just feeling sorry for myself I think. It's becoming clear I only lose if I have 2 good fast days followed by NFDs of less than my TDEE and as you said before choc that's not sustainable. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

3 lbs in 2 weeks is great!

I usually average out at half a pound a week, so in two weeks I'd have lost 1 lb.

Start each NFD with two glasses of water and a tea/coffee. Hold off eating for as long as possible. You might find that the hunger pangs pass. I try not to eat anything before 12 pm on my NFD.

I'm down another pound this week. Going out for a meal tonight. It's a 7 course taster menu, so I don't get to choose. That said, I imagine the portions will be tiny and I will try to limit what I eat the rest of the day. Going to allow myself 2 G&Ts and see if I can stop there!

Thanks maz - sadly it's the other way round though, 2 pounds in 3 weeks.

If I am honest I'm sick of water instead of meals. It makes me feel water logged and blah. The FDs are sort of manageable but then it's disheartening when I put most of the weight back on when it's NFD despite me sticking to a low intake those days.
It feels like if I ate my TDEE then I'd probably just put all of the weight back on.

7 course taster meal sounds like heaven!!

How much do you have to lose evenflo? If it isn't much the weight will always come off a bit slower, but at least you know you're losing fat not just water this way.

FD here. NSV for DH who is doing it with me - he has gone down a notch on his work belt already. It is nice having someone to fast with, though he is of my extra calories. Then again, his nipples are intact and he's not up half the night feeding so it's win-win I reckon.

Going to take the baby and toddler to a playbarn that sells the most delicious cake. The cake isn't cheap, so that FD focus will help me resist and save money, yay!

NFD here after a FD and woke up hungry. My plan to just have kefir and coffee for breakfast didn't go to plan. Added in a peach, some cottage cheese and a couple of breadsticks. Am trying to log everything in MFP to make sure I stay within my TDEE.

Anyways I weighed myself after my two FDs this week and have lost a couple of pounds from the last proper weigh in. Going to aim to weight myself at the same time each week to be able to properly keep track.

Good luck with fasting today for anyone doing it.