5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

mfp can be helpful if you have a tendency to binge

Thank you BCF. I will try to be more careful before a FD from now on. Today was hard but I did it. Just had dinner and whole day is complete on 420 calories. The meal was a bit big to be honest but I didn't want to risk not eating enough and then ruining the day with a snack later.

I had hot drinks with just a dash of milk throughout the day (40ml max in total). Does this sound okay? I cannot drink tea or coffee without milk because it makes me feel sick, especially on an empty stomach.

I also had a small salad for lunch (30 calories). And then a big dinner.

I felt sick and headachey in waves throughout the day. I put that down to hose chocolate biscuits last night.

I just need to be careful this evening. 4 hours till bedtime!

I know lots of people just eat one meal on a FD. I am thinking of doing a small amount three times a day. Would it be less effective to spread the calories out in that way?

Hi Wonderwoo, well done on your second successful FD. Me and my DH also found today tough after quite an indulgent weekend so it is interesting to hear the theory on that.

Well done on the shorts NSV Granny! I have a pair of work trousers that I would like to fit back into - going to give it another week before I try.

Kitchen closed after prawn stir fry. I have always loved prawns and I love them even more now that they are low cal/high protein life savers on FDs! Had a chicken salad for lunch. Getting a bit bored of salad and soup so going to have to try some different recipes for lunch - any easy favourites that you guys would recommend?

woo Go for whatever meal timing best helps you to regularly nail the FDs.
It's fine to experiment a while, to see what system works best for you - we are all different

tip re FD headaches and not feeling too good:
Try glugging a teasp Marmite (10 cals) mid-morning and mid-afternoon.
This replenishes lost salt & minerals, which can be the cause of your problems today - it's quite common during the first few weeks when your body is not yet adapted to fasting.

woo When you've finished eating on FDs, have a glass of water and then clean your teeth:
it helps remove temptation and it draws a line under eating for the day.

I agree, Sarah prawns / shrimps are an excellent FD choice.
For more FD recipe or even eating out ideas, check links under "how to start" in the OP, e.g. BBC 33 x FD recipe under 250'cals

Thank you sarah and BCF

Just off to bed and have avoided eating anything this evening. I did try the marmite tip earlier and I think it helped.

Will check out the links in the OP. Have been working through the inspiration thread to keep me positive today!

A good FD and run with the girls in the evening sunshine (and brief rain shower!). Ate slightly later than planned as OH got in the kitchen first. Had usual mushroom and onion 2 egg omelette and made calories up with frozen veg.

Wonder - I sometimes just have one meal on a FD (like today) and sometimes I split it into two depending on what I'm doing for the day. Key is to find what works for you which can take a while. I always MFP my FD calories - means I can make sure I get optimal nutritional value for the limited calories and I personally find low carb and low sugar works best for me to keep hunger at bay.

MrsTumble - I used to be a pear, hit menopause and turned into an apple, hit 60 and turned into a potato! Taking on board the advice of BigChoc I've lost 9cm from my waist by cutting out sweet carby foods. Can't deny it's always been plain sailing, but if I want to avoid turning back into a potato then it looks like I'm going to have to choose my sweet treats sparingly (or run 6 miles a day, which isn't going to happen).

Sarah - I returned to 5:2 when I discovered my work trousers (now "retired" but they're the only smart black ones I have) no longer fastened comfortably at the waist. It's a boost when then finally fit, and then even better once you realise they're a little loose. Good luck with yours next week.

Well done on nailing your 2nd FD, woo That's a good start

I like your journey among the fruit & veg, granny pear ==> apple ==> potato !
Unfortunately, that's pretty typical of how the decades affect most of us, with meno especially requiring lifestyle changes for weight management.

You are really nailing those changes and hence reaping the SVs and trews NSVs

FD for me today. Weighed myself this morning and I've actually gained 2 pounds since Friday's fast! Will weigh again on Friday but I'm not convinced I'm actually going to loose anything this first week, which is a bit disappointing. I thought on week one I'd be guaranteed at least some water weight off!

I actually think my TDEE is too high - 2050 is a lot and I don't think my body has actually needed it the last few days, but it's given me an excuse to eat (and eat more calorific things to boot). I think I really need to work out what I'm doing on NFDs to get the most out of this.

That's something I'm concerned about, BCF, as I'm probably 5-10 years from peri-menopausal (I'm 38, but women in my family hit menopause at 50+, lots of oops babies in the mid-40s!), and I want to hit that stage of life in as good shape as possible. Do you have any advice to share about how diet should shift through peri-menopause and menopause itself?

FD for me today, brushed my teeth straight off and for once my stomach did not complain at only having black tea while DH & I made breakfast for him and the kids! Finally saw that SV of another pound off, 14st9 this morning. Slowly but surely ...

I have some of the Hartley's no sugar jelly, veg soup, and a packet of miso soup to see me through the day. DH and I are having veg, bacon & rice (heavy on the veg, light on the rice!) stuffed peppers tonight with green salad. Should come in at a comfortable 600-700kcal.

FD here too. Tried on my work uniform trousers this morning, safe to say I am highly motivated! Feel a bit oddly lightheaded though. Probably tiredness, saw every hour with DS last night.

waves at new fasters

FD yesterday after my heavy Saturday night eating and drinking and it felt really good. I think I am at the point now where if I overindulge the fast day is a welcome re-calibration. I didn't even get the extra hunger yesterday, which goes to show my stomach appreciated the rest! Obviously I try not to overdo it if I can help it but this one was pre-planned and I enjoyed myself.

sarah I am totally sick of salad too, need some inspiration as am not great with just replacing salad with different vegetables!

Bug I think my TDEE is too high as well - it's 1955 as I'm on the most sedentary level, but if I ate almost 2k cals every day I think my progress would be hampered. I try and eat to 1600-1700 and that seems to work OK for me. It gives me a slight cushion for a Friday treat as well. If I did more movement during the day I would feel more comfortable eating the full TDEE, but I am chained to my desk most days and need to work on activity levels. I'm sure BCF will be along with the figures on how to eat under TDEE, I think it's 20-25%??

Good luck Tuesday fasters!

Hello new fasters!!!

I know exactly what you mean about fd being a welcome recalibration after a weekend Merricats! I have grown to feel the same and actually look forward to my Monday cleanse/fast now. I think I will continue to fast on a Monday even when I reach maintenance zone!

My fd yesterday was pretty successfully, finishing on around 490cals - I had to do a family food shop in the evening but actually didn't find it too tortuous and treated myself to a Hartley 5cal jelly for when I got home!

Hope all Tuesday fasters are going well!

It's interesting to learn other people's tdees. I'm 5ft7, 59kg, and my tdee is 1700. I cut this to 1600 last week because I am approaching maintenance, and I think that 1700kcals six days a week might see me gain weight. I am one year into Meno, aged 46. Certainly can't eat what I used to.

I find choosing an activity level for tdee calculation purposes is hard. I work from home on a computer. I walk 3 km a day (school run). Spin class twice a week, weights twice a week.

And badminton once a week. I have my activity level at one above the lowest due to my desk job.

And badminton once a week. I have my activity level at one above the lowest due to my desk job.

For those of you talking about menopause, when did you notice the effects start to kick in? I'm terrified of weight gain in menopause, I'm fat enough as it is and I'm only 36.

On a more positive note, great FD today. Had a delicious dinner of roasted salmon and veg with a lovely squeeze of lemon and some fresh basil to lift it. So tasty. Like the pp I felt the need to almost cleanse myself after a heavy weekend so I've almost enjoyed FD today.

Haha just remembered I'm still 35! For another 2 weeks anyway :)

NFDs
Merricat I suggest sticking to any NFD system for 2-3 weeks, to give it a chance to work.

Newbies can start just eating mindfully on NFDs and see how they go - most people don't need to mfp, but some do - those with low TDEE and / or who've got used to eating much more than TDEE.

If at any stage you go 2-3 weeks sts or v slow loss, then mfp aiming not to exceed TDEE - calculating with activity at one level below what you think you do, as Mosely's advice.

If that doesn't work, then try 10-15% below TDEE for 2 weeks.
The next stage is 20% below sedentary TDEE, but if that doesn't work, then post for advice, because you may have misunderstood / miscalculated / have unrealistic expectations of target BMI etc.

ouch Hormones can start to change from age 35 in the buildup to peri-meno. Some women don't really notice any difference until early 40s.
Remember that TDEE decreases a bit anyway, so you may notice that each decade you have to work a bit harder / drop a biscuit or two.

Also, many folk unconsciously increase portion size slightly over the years, or eat out more as they have a bit more spare cash etc.
So, it's not all down to your bod changing.

Whatever the cause, if you find your waist - the most critical measurement - increasing, then take action.
Waist is a good indicator of visceral fat, i.e. fat around your internal organs, which you don't want too high.

The big life stage that often gets overlooked is by latest about age 25, or 1st pregnancy if this is earlier:
it is when you are completely adult physically and you can usually no longer eat like a teenager and get away with it.
A late teen should have a lanky coltish body (not a matronly adult one) with a teen level of bodyfat (lower than adult).
This fills out into adult form and bodyfat by about age 20, but this process may continue during early 20s.

Everyone will have finished this transformation to adult shape by age 25.
So, review your intake and eating habits by this age, or earlier if need be.

Mosely showed that about 1/6 of the population don't respond much to exercise.

I haven't seen research about how this affects TDEE
BUT for almost everyone we know exercise has at most 20% effect, vs the 80% effect of what we consume.

So, my advice:
If you exercise, but find your loss is slow, then to boost loss, try eating to sedentary TDEE on1-4 NFDs per week

• always have at least one NFD per week at your full TDEE

Mship For peri / menu / post, I recommend going lower GI, cutting right down on sugary / high carb treats - cake, biscuits, choc, ice, pizza, crisps, deep-fried food etc.
Also keep alcohol consumption within NHS recommended limits.

This is because excess cals from sugar & alcohol are both stored preferentially around the waist and
at this life stage one of the changes is a tendency to higher insulin, causing more bodyfat around the midsection.
I can post the geeky science stuff about the changes tomorrow, if you are interested

Basically, you can't get away with the WOL that you could before.

Exercise may need to be changed too:

• Move more to HIIT and resistance training, rather than long cardio sessions e.g. 15 mins sprint intervals (includes warmup & cooldown) rather than a 60 mins run I recommend Mosely's 4-minute Fat Blasts on 3-5 days per week
• Fasted exercise, to boost fat-burning

BCF - I think I'm going to have to buy Moseley's Fast Exercise.

'For peri / menu / post, I recommend going lower GI, cutting right down on sugary / high carb treats - cake, biscuits, choc, ice, pizza, crisps, deep-fried food etc.'

-Jeez, that's just sucked the fun of of life

OuchBollocks - I first noticed the menopause just over a year ago when periods stopped. Hot flushes kicked in around 3 months after periods stopped. I agree with BCF that it is difficult to attribute weight gain to the menopause when other things, such as a gradual drift towards bigger portions, could be to blame.

LightsOn It's only cut down a lot, not totally out

I find I enjoy treats far more when they are occasional, e.g once per month or so, than I ever did daily, when I often didn't notice most of it.

Also, most of the pleasure is in the first few mouthfuls

You might want to wait before buying a book:
I describe different forms of exercise to suit all levels & tastes, the science behind, links to exercise calculators, plus Mosely's Fat Blasts in the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

Mosely's Low Carb Mediteranean (the maintenance for the BSD) is excellent for those in our age group. It's my personal longterm WOE, in combination with fasting.

Much better than classic low carb like Atkins, imo, because:

• LC Med combines the 2 proven most effective diets - LC and Mediterranean - with Mediterranean also generally found the healthiest WOE for those not dieting too.

• boosts beans, lentils & peas which have been proven to help stabilize blood sugar - but also contain carbs and hence make this WOE easier than classic low carb

• boosts natural yoghurt, which helps gut health / gut flora

• boosts oily fish - which is superhealthy - in preference to red meat, especially heavily processed low quality meat

• encourages moderate consumption of wine, instead of spirits, mixers, cocktails etc