5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

If you are not losing after 2-3 weeks, then examine calorie intake, because it is the dominant factor for 95-98 % of people:

• Recalculate TDEE, using Mosely's calculator (in the OP) for a rough NFD target
  Make sure you set it for one activity level than you think, as he recommends, because most people overestimate how active they are

• Check you aren't eating back any exercise calories on FDs.
  It is 500 for women, 600 for men.
  Some - especially men - can lose with 800 cal FDs; some maintainers do 800 FDs
  However, if you are sts or losing v slowly, you need to stick to the original rules.

• mfp for a full week, for a reality check if you are actually eating roughly at, or below this. Some folk have been shocked at what they actually consume - don't forget alcohol, lattes, milk etc
  In particular, check what your weekly calorie deficit is.
  Roughly 3,000 cals to lose 1lb / 7,500 to lose 1 kg.

• Note: within healthy bmi, especially if you are short/ middle aged / sedentary, your TDEE may be very low.
  If so, your loss at any weight will probably be slower than average, because your calorie deficit on FDs is lower.

e.g. a woman with 2000 TDEE gets a 3000 deficit from 2 FDs @ 500
whereas with 1500 TDEE, the deficit is only 1600 cals.
A tall man with TDEE 3000 gets a 4800 deficit from 2 FDs @ 600 ( why they can usually lose on 800 FDs)

Thank you, maybe being an apple doesn't help things, it's all tummy fat. Even at a size 10 I seem to store it there, everything else is skinny it's so annoying.

I must be overeating my calories on my non fast days, but I really don't feel like I am. I don't drink, don't smoke, and avoid artificial sweetener. I drink coffee with semi skimmed milk, not a lot either a splash. And have 2/3 coffees a day, usually drink water other than that.

Example- yesterday at a picnic with friends when they were all eating crisps, sandwiches, sausage rolls, and chocolate, I had a banana, some pistachios, and a coffee.

Got home, made spaghetti and meatballs, made the sauce myself from chopped tomatoes, garlic, kale, spices and herbs. I had 5 meatballs and a small to medium portion of pasta. I also had 4 cheese dough balls, and a mars ice cream for pudding. Now I know the dough balls and mars ice cream aren't healthy, but this wasn't a fast day. This was just a normal day. I don't eat breakfast, never do and rarely eat a big lunch, it's usually fruit or a jacket potato, I don't snack. I also walked 11,000 steps yesterday which I was proud of! Got on the scales this morning expecting to see a lb gone but nothing. Very hard then to have the motivation for a second fast day when I'm not shifting very much.

But maybe like you say it's just slow because it's stubborn fat. Well I wish it would feck off! No amount of sit ups, crunches or planks is doing anything either.

Hi, please help me to start this again!

I did 5:2 in 2013, lost weight and felt fantastic. Now I am a size 10, but my clothes are really tight and I feel uncomfortable and big.

So, I am struggling to get motivated, but will try to start tomorrow...

Just placemarking as I've not been posting and I'd dropped off the thread

BCF have you got that list to see if I can find some inspiration from it?

The problem I'm having is when I restarted 5:2 back in March my portion sizes were too big. Especially my tea. Anything we were eating meat wise I was having 2, chicken breasts, 2 salmon fillets veg and probably too many carbs mainly potatoes. I was eating the same as my DH

I then started binging, and put on a lot of weight very quickly so I stopped the refined carbs and sugar. It's worked wonders as I've not binged and it's stopped all cravings and I've lost weight and inches.

As I've cut these things out and my portion size has dramatically dropped I'm averaging 500cals for my tea now. I'm not snacking, and have reduced coffee and teas and drink more water.

On NFD I'm now consuming 900-1000 cals when my TDEE is 1500.

Is this a problem? When I'm ready to reintroduce carbs again I do aim to limit the portions per week as I feel so much better for it.

For me it's now not only about weight loss it's now about getting fit too and I'm at the point where I'm ready to do this.

Is TDEE a guide line? What do you suggest BCF?

Not underweight my BMI is currently 21 something. Target should take me to 20.8.

Hi everyone, I have been too busy eating to post over the weekend ! Hopefully haven't done too much damage. FD today. Got a bit of a different week, out and about more, so considered swapping my days but I love getting them out of the way early on so will just see how it goes.

Hi everyone, welcome to the new guys and good luck fasters.

See how you go Sarah, it's so flexible that's the beauty of this.

I've been waiting with bated breath for a few days for my SV. And it's here today 2 stone off and determined for a good week as I'm now 3.2lbs from target.

I didn't quite get to my target last year but I am doing it this year.

Well done quacking - that's great news for a Monday!! Do you mind me asking how long it's taken for you to get this far?

Bug it's taken 16 weeks. The first 4 weeks I was doing alright but couldn't get to grips with the NFDs. At the 2 month point I went completely off track after a weekend off and a huge 2 day binge that resulted in 6lbs on. I basically lost 10 lbs and regained 6 lbs so ended up being very strict on myself.

Personally I need to be strict as that gain was awful how I could almost undo 2 months work in a weekend. And it took ages to shift it again.

Well done on a fantastic SV quacking! You are storming this!!!

I've not had a chance to catch up on all the weekend posts yet, but hope everyone is doing well.

Fd for me today after a weekend of picnic food, beach bbqs and prosecco. I did lots of swimming and paddling in canoe too, so hopefully balanced it out a bit - and managed to resist the ice cream too!

Congrats on your SV and 2 stone milestone, duck
You sound very low carb, which can drastically reduce appetite and calories in some very insulin-resistant people.
Increasing starchy carbs gradually should increase this to a maintenance level.

TDEE is a guideline for the calories you need to maintain, but as I posted people vary.
However, your NFDs sound low for maintenance phase and you are now in the prep stage for that.
So, I recommend aiming for at least 1200 on NFDs , building up to this over the next 2 weeks and seeing how you feel.

I suggest this week you try adding 2 tbsp of different heathy starches - e.g. brown rice / quinoa / sweet potato chunk (not mash) / small slice wholegrain bread - to your main meal each NFD
If that feels fine, then next week, add to another daily meal as well.

duck Calculate TDEE for your DH and compare to yours - you may need to only eat half the calories he does.

Protein is good, but not in excess; sensible portion size for you is one chicken breast / salmon fillet etc per meal
Aim to fill at least half your plate with non-starchy veg
Once you have built up the starchy carbs, keep the total amount (i.e. summing any double carbs) to maximum 100g cooked weight at any meal. You may feel better on much less, say 40g.

Recommended by Mosely: Boost beans, lentils, peas which have some starchy carbs, but are also excellent for helping insulin control

Welcome, soslow
First step is to decide you are prepared to manage your weight; next, just do it.
This time, you will have a maintenance plan to avoid regain, so your motivation is that this time is for keeps.

Noting your measurements and weight help to monitor progress and may help initial motivation to start.
I suggest you read the "How to Start" in the OP, because we have learned some helpful tips since 2013.

Planning & prep help a lot:
Choose which days suit you best this week for FDs
Then plan your FD menu, calculate its calories, shop and prepare

MrsTumble What you describe sounds like you could very easily be eating quite a bit above TDEE.
Research has repeatedly shown that most people, especially with a bit of extra weight, seriously under estimate calories in a meal

You really need a week on mfp, weighing everything to know - many people who thought they were around TDEE have had a huge shock, exceeding sometimes by 1000 cals.

Go for an early start, sarah Sounds like that works best for you

Most 5:2ers lose weight without ever needing to count cals.
However, some folk have got used to a "normal" eating which is hundreds, or even more, above their TDEE.
Some have one weekly binge which adds an extra 2000 cals - for a small woman, that may exceed the entire deficit from 2 FDs

For this group, mfp can be an eye-opener.

To lose and maintain weight - on any WOE, whether 5:2 or anything else - they need to replace some calorie dense food by veg.
What helps: make high cal "treats" 1-2 x weekly, not daily. Also have one portion only.

I agree with BCF about the eye-openers! In both directions - a lot of vegetables, even sweeter ones like carrots or peppers, were (to me) surprisingly low calorie. I am two months in and still needing MFP to help with my NFDs. My TDEE is about 1800kcal, and I could easily exceed that if I wasn't tracking everything.

No SV for me today, still at 14st10, but I feel a lot better after a slightly under TDEE day yesterday (birthday treats all gone!) and a lovely 2km swim this morning. The overindulgence on birthday stuff left me feeling grotty, nauseous, aching and tired, like the after-effects of an IBS attack. It's nice to be back to normal.

Just checking in quickly to confirm Monday FD for me. Scales have not shifted since last week but the shorts I wore on holiday are a little looser round the waist.

Hi everyone. I am new to 5:2. I have just finished reading this whole thread... it took me four days! I am blown away by the knowledge shared and support offered by you all and wondered if I can join in please?

I did a fast day on Friday and found it easy and energising. Second one today and I am struggling a bit. Feel very fuzzy headed and lethargic. I have had a small but tasty salad for lunch and plan a quorn, baked sweet potato and veg/salad dinner later.

I had a reasonable NFD yesterday and then ate a load of chocolate biscuits in the evening. A moment (or ten) of weakness! I wonder if all that sugar is why I am finding today harder.

I couldn't weigh in properly before my first FD because the batteries in my scales had gone (bad timing). But I estimate I was about 12 stone 10. I am 5'6".

I have found fasting to make me feel good in the past and and won over by the evidence so really going to give this my best shot.

I am a bit worried about binging on NFD as I have a habit of doing that following restricted calories in the past.

*bingeing

That's a shorts / inches NSV, granny

Welcome, woo and well done on your 1st FD
Yes, your problems on today's FD are quite likely to do with last night's choc biscuit binge messing up your blood sugar.

I recommend on the NFD before an FD that after lunch you be mindful of what you eat & drink,
to avoid starting your FD with unstable blood sugar or a hangover.

Have a decent NFD supper based on protein, lots of veg, a sensible portion of starchy carbs and avoid:
more than 1-2 glasses of wine or more than a small portion of "treat" / junk food - choc, ice, cake, biscuits, crisps, pizza, dough balls etc.

For those with a tendency to binge, many can be helpful, because it helps you to stop and think first if you really want a calorie bomb with day 40g sugar

my can help train you into good NFD habits, which you need later for maintenance.

What can also help is to "2:5" your sweet / carby treats, i.e. have them on only 2 NFDs per week.

mship Once your body is used to the good stuff, you are likely to notice that some previous "treats" just aren't as nice, especially the aftermath if you have IBS.

MrsTumble For almost anyone, any excess calories from alcohol or sugary / carry treats are preferentially stored around the midsection.
For apple shapes, this tendency is even more pronounced.

Apple shapes typically tend to be insulin-resistant.
So to lose weight - in addition to as checking you have a weekly calorie deficit, i.e. the amount you consume - you may also need to change the type of food (& drink)

Try to keep those ice creams and dough balls for special occasions only. Even 1x weekly may sabotage fat-burning unless the portion is small, e.g. miniMagnum only, or 1 small doughball.
Also, check that your alcohol consumption is within NHS guidelines

oops, ipad autocorrect is as mad as ever