5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I hope you are feeling better now, ouch
If you still feel weak, it's fine to have a week of healthy maintenance:
i.e. no alcohol or junk food, plenty of water, veg and fruit, early nights.

Yes hope you are feeling better Ouch.

Another sweet potato and tuna tea here! I said to DH to get nice tuna (meaning nice tinned) and he got tuna steaks - yum!

Today hasn't been too bad other than feeling grumpy every time I remembered the numbers on the scale this morning.

thanks BCF- you are very helpful! much appreciated. Day one nearly done and feeling fine

Nice NSVs MShip! I had a pair of shorts fit much more nicely at the weekend.

Well done on your shorts NSV, sarah
Looser clothes - lost inches - represent progress better than scales blips

Well done to everyone on you NSV and SV.

Badass I find I take too big a portion of the Greek yoghurt so I either weigh it or use a very small bowl for it. It's a baby's bowl I got in the £ shop so I don't over indulge on the yummy ness.

I'm still a bit away from maintenance yet but thanks so much BCF for your invaluable advice.

I may just play it by ear, carry on weighing and see how much my weight is up or down by.
The issue I have is when I'm alone I do occasionally binge so I temporarily solved that by fasting those two days. If i don't fast I will plan for a mini fast.

I'm starting to phase out MFP because i started keeping a food diary with calories so I know roughly how many calories are in my teas but I use for new foods and it's still a eye opener.

NSV here today, I need to go pants shopping. My sizes 12s are hanging. I do like them bigger as I find them more comfy but they keep falling down. I'm so excited I've never owned size 10 pants.

that is a good idea (bowl) quaking- thanks... am surprised that i am not starving this morning - after my first FD!

quckingduck22 - well done on the size 10s!

I love cooking different things - you should see my cook book hoard! So I think that I will need the 'training wheels' (great analogy BCF) of MFP just a bit longer.

I've found that I have stopped eating as much fruit - because it is so high in sugar/cals, but veg consumption has gone up. I went to a Pick your Own farm the other day so I have loads of strawberries which aren't too bad in terms of cals.

A pants falling down NSV is always encouraging duck and now you have your first ever size 10 NSV too

Yes, smaller bowls and plates definitely help.
We tend to eat a plateful at a meal, even if it's a big plate - too much bare plate, with a smaller portion, can make us feel robbed.
Also, plates have increased in size since the 1960s - I have my some of my late mum's dinner plates, side plates and bowls: the old pieces are clearly smaller than standard sizes now,

FD yesterday was difficult as I craved everything I couldn't have and the cravings are still there today. I know the idea of 5:2 is that you can have cake tomorrow, but the way I feel at the moment I'd eat the whole cake. I have no excuse to feel down, but I just do.

So many NSVs here - keep up the good work everyone, it really does help to read your good news.

GrannyGrown - I struggled last week with similar swings between fasting and then wanting to feast a bit too vigorously to make up for it! Did you stick to your FD? Maybe a bit of what you fancy or some really good filling but healthy (ish) food will sort you out?

Whoever suggested tuna and sweet potato , it was so yummy and filling it didn't even feel 'fasty'.

Trying hard to stay within TDEE today. NSV - someone asked if I had lost weight. Love the pants falling down NSV!

Granny After a tough 10k, your bod may be knackered, which can lead to cravings or binges

How's your fd day been Granny? I'm sure we all have days like that. You always seem so disciplined so don't be too hard on yourself!

Nfd here - went for lunch with some colleagues and had the most enormous sandwich. I've not really been eating bread so I actually felt quite daunted by it! I ended up leaving all the crusts! I've eaten a fd lentil chilli for tea this eve to make up for it too!

Hope all those fasting today have done well!

SingingGoldfinch - it's interesting how IF affects NFDs. Looking at the reports tab on MFP shows a graph which shows a clear decline in calories per NFD over 8 weeks. I basically can't eat what I used to. Lately I've felt a bit anxious about leaving food in restaurants. I used to leave food in restaurants anyway - if the portion sizes were too big - but now I leave more. I suppose it's the restaurant's fault for serving so much. Doggy bags are the way forward

That's excellent news, lightsOn Your appetite is adjusting to what your body actually needs

That's good LightsOn, there is hope for me yet!

Managed to stay well within TDEE yesterday (and still had a small treat with a cuppa later on), scales are back to where they were, all is well with the world. I am going to avoid weighing myself after the weekend in future, especially weekends where I have mostly eaten BBQ meat and bread!

Second FD today, always find this one more difficult than the first, good luck any fellow fasters

Lightson I was coming on to post a very similar post.

It hit me yesterday how much not only my diet has changed but portion sizes. It's incredible. That's the one thing I really wanted to change.

I used to have a huge appetite and found when we eat out I was always looking at the extra large meals and usually ordering them. I can't wait to go out and order a normal meal. I was even wondering about child's portions and of places would allow it.

Also at home, when I started 5:2 in order to combat the no snacking rule I used to cook a extra portion of meat so we would be having 2 large chicken breasts, a whole packet of salmon. I have stopped that now and our shopping bill has massively reduced.

I've had a couple of relaxed days food wise. I'm going out tonight but want to crack down on Thursday get back in the gym and make a real effort to get to target.

Interesting lights - I definitely don't eat as much as I used to. I've actually felt quite queasy after eating certain less healthy foods too!

Thanks for the support guys, it means a lot.

Sarah - my Monday FD was okay calorie-wise - in the end I was too stubborn to NOT stick to it! I just didn't want to.

Am still craving sweet carby foods terribly - I don't think it was the run BigChoc as I've done similar before (just without stopping!). Did my usual Tuesday morning gym class and it wasn't any harder than usual. Wondering if my taste buds are a bit off - OH made curry last night which he found okay but it was too hot for me and the rice too salty.

LightsOn - doggy bags are definitely the way to go. We regularly ask for them in restaurants if we're out eating as a family as we tend to eat go places where we can share lots of different dishes.

Singing - I love bread! Not sure I could do without - am happy to just eat nice bread on it's own!

Qucking - have you gone shopping for those size 10s yet? It does feel good to go down through the sizes. On difficult days I tend to put on my tightest jeans as a reminder why I'm doing this.

Wishing you all a happy Wednesday.

slightly off plan today- was meant to be my second FD but forgot to bring in supplies so ate from cafeteria where I really can't tell calorie counts. ate in moderation though- and no breakfast so don't think I am far wrong.

I went shopping Granny but didn't actually buy anything. Just ended up walking around bit stunned on what to buy.

I've placed a new order for pants (knickers) in size 10. And was going to place a order for a couple of my favorite jeans a size smaller but I may end up waiting until target just incase I slip down another size. I doubt I will but I suppose it all depends where the weight comes off.

I seriously should of waited before buying tops as I went on a spending spree a while ago. They are all hanging off me so everything I had bought for best I've ended up wearing as daywear and I'm going to have to buy new evening wear. I don't think the fashion at the moment helps as everything seems to be oversized.

On the plus side 2L of water down already.

Mushroom and veg omelette with a salad for tea and that's me done for the day. Not been too traumatic.

Hope others are having a better day. I would normally do a FD on Thursday but I'm out. I did a FD on Monday and another today and have been suffering a sick headache all day. Might be the shift in weather.

Anyways, normally I feel fine on FDs but today I've been hungry and cranky and suffering from low blood sugar.

Planning to drink loads of water tonight

That's good portion size NSVs for you all, LightsOn, Duck, Goldfinch
5:2 is training you to eat only what your body burns, on NFDs, which will be a big help later in the maintenance phase, after you've reached goal

crocus Have you had a teasp Marmite on your FD today ? It often helps FD headaches.
Make sure you drink plenty of water too - I recommend no more than 1 can fizz per day., whether zero cal (FDs) or full fat (NFDs)

Well done on persisting with the FD, Granny
If you are craving sugary carbs, I suggest 2-3 successive days of low carb, i.e. without any starchy carbs - replace with beans or lentils - no added sugar or sugary treats, no fruit except berries.
That can often do the trick - it lowers and stabilizes insulin levels

Well done, sarah, badass
If you've finished your planned FD meal(s) then drink a glass of water and clean your teeth, to close the kitchen for the day.
Try to have an early night on FDs, to maximise fasting benefits.