5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Comments on looking slim are definitely a NSV worth banking Merricat - even if the scales don't show a significant shift this week. I've not had a single comment (other than from my husband) on my weight loss which is a bit disheartening - makes me wonder if it's even noticeable even though I can feel the difference myself.

Well mine are just from my DH and my grandmother Goldfinch , I wonder if they count! Though my DH tends to say it sparingly and 'scientifically' because he knows I won't just accept it unless he can back it up . So he's quite reliable in that sense. I know that the day my mum says it will be the day it's undeniable - nothing as yet. But I'm harshest on myself so if I can see it in my face I reckon it's definitely true!

I think it counts if the comment is unprompted. My dh has only said it when I've asked him outright! I don't feel I can count that!! I know it really shouldn't matter that other people notice or comment but it would be a boost nevertheless!!

Personal victories are bankable too though I reckon. If you look at yourself in the mirror and see a slimmer face smiling back at you then that's a victory in my eyes!!!

Congrats on your shape NSV, Merricat and to everyone with compliments NSVs
If you stick to the WOE, you should drop the totm retained water during the FD following its end, plus an extra lb or so.

FD today. I seem to be in a good routine now for fast days. Last meal was last night at 6pm. I drink tea, coffee, herbal tea throughout the day - all without milk. A Hartley's 6kcal jelly at midday. Then 493 kcals for tea at 6pm. Then breakfast at 7am tomorrow. I hope that's ok!

I'm sitting on the fence over FD today or not. Didn't get to sleep until 1 a.m. and then up at 5.30 a.m. to look after toddler from 6 a.m this morning. My brain is feeling slightly frazzled ...... . Now back home and relaxing with peaceful cup of coffee - but have to be out in an hour to go to afternoon/evening class. Feeling very old today ...

Lights are the Hartley's jellies pre-made ones or do you make them up yourself? I love jelly, think it sounds like a great idea for FDs.

Hello all, I am new to the thread, but not new to 5-2. I started a few months after the original programme, and it has worked brilliantly until last year, when I kept starting then abandoning fasts. I am dealing with several changes in circumstances, approaching menopause, and threatening reoccurring depression. I have now put on 4-5kg, some of which was needed, but it is still increasing and getting me down. So I'm posting to try and help get me back on track with fasting. I am very good at 16:8, which I do most days, but it's the amount I eat in the 8 hours, especially towards the end of the day!

Sounds like you've got a good fasting routine now, LightsOn

Welcome, greentiger

What system did you have for FDs ?
Many people find that saving almost all calories for supper works best - but plan your menu the day before and NO deviations, no snacks.

Aternative systems that work for those who find FDs tough :

1. Ease your way in with 800-900 cal FDs, then gradually reduce once you have adapted

2. Have 3 non-consecutive mini-FDs ( i.e. up to 1000 cals, but same rules of no junk or alcohol)
   so Mon+Wed+Fri miniFDs

16:8
As you have found, whether 5:2 or daily 16:8, almost anyone only really loses weight via a weekly calorie deficit, typically around 3,000 cals for 1lb loss.

Without FDs, that means on 16:8 you need to cut out breakfast or supper AND not eat back those calories during the 8 hours

Since your problem is eating at night, I recommend you try skipping supper, so your 8 hours are e.g. 8am to 4 pm, eating only 2-3 meals.

NO snacking is really important, because snacking keeps insulin raised, hence hunger raised and also stops fat-burning. Most people who snack eat more in total, because they don't reduce the meal size sufficiently to compensate.

FD was hard today because, unusually, I wasn't at work. Pret miso soup at lunchtime, and then ate a few prawns while I cooked supper: steamed basil and ricotta dumplings (includes breadcrumbs and some Parmesan as well as basil, ricotta and lemon zest, so not the FD friendliest, but DD was having teeth out pre having braces fitted, and wanted something soft, which was fair enough), with a home made tomato sauce. DCs had pasta as well. Yummy but I may be a bit over for the day. Had a bath straight afterwards to take my mind off the fact that I cold cheerfully have scoffed the panna cotta I got DD as a soft pudding treat! So glad I only bought enough for the children.

FD abandoned before it was begun today, woke up at 6am with a blinding migraine. Still have a headache, couldn't face fasting. FD tomorrow instead.

Hurray for a slimmer face *Merricat!' as soon as your TOTM has passed you should lose the water retention and see a drop on the scales too.

How did you get on today granny? Sleep deprivation makes FD an uphill struggle!

I've been following this WOL since Dec. 2013 and have only told my DH and sister. No one else knows! There's nothing worse than a diet bore. When the comment on my success I just smile and say thank you.

Have taken your advice BC and measured my waist: it's just below half my height.

Today has been a successful NFD despite a treat breakfast with the kids and a work's lunch do.

Hope your head feels better tomorrow Ouch and you have a successful FD.

That's right, ouch If you see an FD won't work, just move it and move on.
I hope your head is better tomorrow

Well done on your FD, pangolin You can buy yourself a treat tomorrow, if you wish
Or have a non-food reward you can enjoy

TheMShip... The Hartley's jellies are tall ready made ones.

Mmmmm your steamed basil and ricotta dumplings sound lush Pango!! I could so eat a few of those now!! Well done on your fast day and everyone else too.

Sorry to hear about your bad head Ouch - hope a good night's sleep fixes it!

Successful FD here. I'm done on about 400cals - had a two egg mushroom omelette for tea with a big green salad and a smidge of low cal salad cream and I was stuffed!! Mushrooms are my new FD best friends!

Well done on a good day , goldfinch, Maz

Ouch hope your migraine has eased off by now and gone by tomorrow morning.

Pango - I find the only way to resist temptation is to resist buying it in the first place but thats easier said than done if you have DCs to buy for! We'll done on avoiding the panna cotta.

FD was a goer in the end. Ran out of time to stuff my face before I went out so threw together my usual frozen prawn salad to have mid-class and had ham and mushroom omelette when I got back. I don't often have fruit on a FD, but the 40g avocado I was going to have with my salad turned out to be over-ripe and brown, so with calories to spare I had some frozen blueberries. Delicious. Much cheaper than fresh and take a long time to eat! So kitchen closed at just under 500 cals.

Well done granny for seeing your FD through after wavering - that takes real determination, especially after disrupted sleep. I'm a big frozen fruit fan too, especially in porridge or stirred into some full fat Greek yogurt.

Good work on a successful FD after an uncertain start Granny!!

I need to try frozen blueberries. I don't tend to eat fruit on a FD anymore but they sound like a great treat if craving something a bit sweeter!

I've just done my weekly weigh in and another 2lb off since last week. Now 10st2 so that's a stone off in total and 2lb off my original goal!! Feeling pretty chuffed!

That's strange I posted yesterday but it didn't appear.

I did my B2B FD yesterday no issues at all.

It's not my official weigh in day today but I am now the lightest I've been since my very early teens.

Very pleased as after my first FD this week and ever since fasting I actually put on weight after my FD. Possible it's TOM as my belly seemed more puffy in the morning. Or could be as BCF says "a good poop will sort you out"

Well done Sarah that's a amazing loss.

Granny funny you mention your annoying NSV being your watch now not fitting. I have a activity tracker watch and it's been doing my head in last few days as it's constantly wanting me to input my password, I thought it was broken but turns out it wasn't making contact with my wrist. Since going up a notch it's now stopped asking for the damn password.

Goldfinch great week you've had. Have you reset your target weight?

Another pound down!

I have a kettlebell class this morning. My pre-baby work out clothes that I was so happy to squeeze into not that long ago are loose!

I'm going out with friends for dinner tonight, so really looking forward to it, but don't want the weekend to derail my success, so I might throw in a mini-FD if I can.

Enjoy your weekend everyone! I hope your DD isn't too traumatised after getting teeth out pango. The thought alone makes me wince.

Congrats on your SVs, Maz, goldfinch

Great milestone SV too, duck lightest since early teens is amazing

Well done on managing a tough FD, Granny

< Shudders over teeth extraction > Sympathy to Pango DD

Thanks BCF, I managed a proper fast day yesterday, was determined to after I posted! However, I then struggled to get to sleep as I felt so empty, this keeps happening. I have to get to sleep early as I am up before 4am to do my training, which I am used to, but I struggle when I haven't slept well, and then end up overeating the following day as I am so tired. This is the root of my problem I think, as I can train in a fasted state easily, and can fast until afternoon with no problem, but tiredness causes me to overeat later in the day as I have to keep going. I don't snack as such, just eat a lot in one go, but definitely going over my calorie need. Will try and keep on track today.

greentiger I have issues around evening/dinner eating too. I tend to eat too much too quickly. For FDs especially, what I've found helps is to first weigh my food and then put my meal out on the smallest plate. I also try to do something in between every bite to slow down - easy when eating with a toddler and 5yo who demand lots of my attention!

Light thanks for the tip on the jellies! I'm going to see if I can find some of those today for my next FD.

I clocked out at 573kcal yesterday. Was up 3 hours in the night with a teething toddler, and shared a banana with her at 1:30am. Shattered today. Still waiting on scales till next Thursday for a birthday weigh-in, but I am confident there will be a drop as it will have been almost 2 weeks between. About a week ago I was able to do my belt in another notch, and it's now comfortable on that notch.

I am doing my second FD today, was going to do it Wednesday but realised my daughters Rainbows were doing a tea party where they serve Mums with tea and cakes! I said I did not want one but could not stick to it with the disappointment on her face when all her friends mums were eating them - ended up with 2 small fairy cakes and a cream scone! but still managed to come in about TDEE (not the healthiest way to do it).

Other than this not a bad first week back on it 380 cals Monday and other than Wednesday under TDEE other days. Went for a swim yesterday when my Daughter in her lesson. So I if can do FD today I will be pleased.

One of the things I find hard as I loose weight is loose skin on my stomach (most of my weight is round my middle), so even when I get down in weight I don't feel good because of this - maybe one of the reasons why I gain. I am nearly 50 and had a hysterectomy a couple of years ago so not sure how much my skin can adjust now - any tips!