5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

greentiger I used to struggle to sleep on FD now, but manage easily now. I think ou bodies get more used to it over time. A late dinner followed by a bath definitely helps me sleep.

greentiger Have you tried saving almost all FD calories until shortly before bed ?

Warning: Getting up at 4am, even if it fits training into your day, may over time be causing a serious sleep disorder, if your schedule does not fit your Circadian rhythms.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadianrhythmmsleepdisorder

When you didn't try to fast, did you sleep well with those hours ?

If not, I'd recommend you change your training times, because lack of sleep tends to put on weight - even if you have the willpower to control eating - because it increases cortisol.
i.e. the damage may outweigh any possible benefit from exercise.
Usually, lack of sleep affects self-discipline and performance in your job and your home life

Sleep Tips

• No caffeine - coffee, espresso etc - in the 8 hrs before bed
• No alcohol in the 3 hrs before bed. alcohol may make you sleepy, but worsens the quality of that sleep.
• No screens at least 1 hr before bed
• Avoid exercise 4 hrs before bed May not be practical - if you train evenings, then try to do so as early as possible.
• 15 mins sun daily, or at least time outside
• Ensure bedroom is dark (cover even an alarm light), quiet, comfy temperature
• Keep a regular daily bedtime that suits your Circadian rhythms / internal body clock (obv may not be possible for shift workers) Longterm, this routine trains your body to prepare for sleep
• On FDs, try to save nearly all your calories for supper

It has been documented that shift workers longterm usually suffer from poorer health and weight gain.

For those who have to earn a living that way, it's unavoidable.
However, I would advise against your routine if it is merely to fit in training early, i.e. optional.

Your body may be barely managing sufficient sleep when you weren't fasting, so when you added fasting, this tipped your total stress beyond what your body can handle.
It doesn't mean that before fasting your body was operating comfortably

Anyone with ravenous hunger on FDs:

Make FDs your training rest days
at least until you are adapted to fasting and in an FD eating routine that works for you

Even if you used to have only one restday, increase this to 2 restdays while you adapt to fasting:
Intermittent Fasting uses the same principle of hormesis (short bursts of high stress, with recovery intervals) as HIIT.
So your body may need the extra day recovery time, while it gets used to IF.

Happy weekend 5:2ers!

Minor NSV here today. I was cooking breakfast and DH suddenly said "where's your bum gone?" - he did then go on to say that he didn't want to lose too much as he liked a few curves!

That's a shrinking bum NSV, Goldfinch !

Thanks for spending the time on this BCF. I am a serious athlete and have been training in the very early mornings for over four years, and until recently was able to fast twice a week as well, and felt great. I do all the sleep recommendations, and on days that I am not fasting, I am out like a light, it is the empty stomach on fast days that has recently been preventing it. However, I will change to having all my food before bed to see if this helps. I think that with the unavoidable changes to my life circumstances in the last 18 months, my body now appears unable to cope with the longer fasting as well, and copes better with the 16-8, but I need to do it properly. I was getting concerned about my weight gain, and beating myself up that it was due to the lack of fasting when it is probably more to do with simply eating too much now that I am perimenopausal. I have to work out a balance between everything. Many thanks for your help.

Saturday FD folks! Go me!

As yet, I've had nothing except black coffee and water. Dinner is going to be chicken stew.

Won't manage my usual Monday FD as I'm meeting up with friends, so I'm glad I've nailed it today.

Good for you, Maz !

GreenTiger I suggest you calculate TDEE and mfp for a week.

Whether 5:2 or 16:8, most people need around a 3,000 deficit to lose around 1lb weekly.
(unless they either have a few stone to lose, or are just trimming an already lean bod)

As we age, particularly around menopause, our bodies don't behave as they did before.
TDEE drops noticeably with each adult decade or so, but particularly so at this time of life.
Hence what always worked before, may no longer do so - this is where a brief mfp helps

Unfortunately we get used to eating a certain amount and if there is no junk to cut out, this requires techniques tricking our bodies to accept consuming less, e.g. fasting.

As we age, all of us, including athletes, need to adjust food & drink intake, exercise, sleep habits, shift patterns for those who are shift workers

My tongue is sore. It's feels slightly swollen and almost as if it's dry/irritated. Has anyone else had this? Is this connected to my diet in some way?

Maz It might be an allergic reaction to a new food - especially a spice - or changed medication
It could just be you burnt your tongue on v hot food which can take a few days
It can also be a sign of infection or illness, that may become more apparent in a couple of days

If symptoms persist more than say a week, or if they get much worse, see your doctor

I'm having an FD today, anyone else ?

Maz I agree with BCF sounds like a illergic reaction. I get a swollen tongue and a blood blister after eating a certain cheese.

I had a funny thing happen Friday. Had a chicken shish kebab. It's the only takeaway we ever have. The chicken is in a tandoori seasoning. I had salad with it and a little mayo and threw the pitta in the bin. As soon as I ate it my stomach swelled from under the bust all the way down. It looked like I was pregnant. Was gone the next day but I felt very bloated.
Have decided in future I will make my own.

No FD here planning for Thursday and Saturday and get back to normal.

I've been thinking about maintenance as I'm 6lbs away. And I think I'm going to continue with the 2 day fast and eat back the calories. I just wanted to check with BCF do I just eat back 1 FDs cals?

How does that work? My TDEE is (was not recalculated it since starting) 1400.

Qduck22 - I think that when you get to your final weight you need to recalculate your TDEE. But let's assume it's 1400, and you fast 2 days. Then there's 900 that you could have eaten had you been doing 6:1. So 900/5=180. On maintenance you could eat 1580kcals on the 5 days you don't fast.

Thanks light on. I get it now, I was having a bit of a moment there where I couldn't work out how to do it.

BCF - I'm fasting today.

So far so good.

Could you tell me please exactly what you will be consuming today.

Fast days are fine for me. Still struggling with eating days. 🙈🙈

calzone I'll have water, tea with stevia all day, then salmon, roasted mediteranean veg and mixed salad for supper.
How about you ?

I'm going to the gym shortly, will lift a lot of free weights.

duck Maintenance
Do recalculate your TDEE, but maybe phase out mfp gradually, as you have learn what works for you in maintenance.
You could try keeping the 2 FDs and just relaxing on NFDs at the start of maintenance , without mfp, to see if weight stay the same when you eat a bit more.

Then you optionally do down to one FD after say a month.

One or two FDs in longterm maintenance is a choice depending on how much you want to relax on NFDs.

Daily 16:8 / 14-19 or whatever, without FDs, means being very watchful on NFDs and I would definitely recommend a transition of one weekly FD for at least a month, if you intend that.

oops, excuse all the typos

Tea
Coffee
Water

Roast chicken, broccoli and roasted beetroot
Options hot chocolate

Early to bed!!!!

Couple of questions: 1) it's my FD tomorrow, in my pre-5:2 life I would have a glass of wine, or a g&t on a Sunday - is that now a bad idea? Would it make Monday fast days harder?
2) I have become quite anal about MFP, and weighing my food/drink. I am determined to stay within my TDEE on FDs, and on 500 kcals on FDs - once I get into maintenance can I ditch MFP? BCF offers sound advice above referenced maintenance. It didn't occur to me to maybe keep two FDs, and to relax on the other 5 days. But I have to admit that I'm looking forward to just one FD!

That should say re maintenance, not referenced!

I generally had Monday as one of my FDs Lights and I usually have a glass of wine (or 2) on a Sunday night. I've never noticed it have any adverse effect on my FDs at all. I find a Monday fd after a drink the night before just the same as my 2nd fd of the week when I've rarely had a drink.

lightson

1. One drink the evening before an FD is fine.
   I strongly recommend against heavy drinking or lots of sweet treats before FDs though:
   you may feel too grotty to fast, or if you do so you may find it very tough.

2. Most 5:2ers lose weight without ever using mfp
   You only need mfp as "training wheels," if you have got used to eating & drinking well over TDEE

• a sign of this is if you yoyo without losing weight for the first few weeks, maybe after an small initial loss.

You are more likely to need mfp if you have a low TDEE, say 1500, because your weekly deficit means weight loss will be slow anyway, so you want to avoid reducing the deficit even further.

As soon as you have NFDs under control, whether in weight loss phase or maintenance, you can stop mfp.
Just return to it if you regain (in maintenance) or sets (in weight loss phase)