5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

BCF, I've just read up thread what you said: 'I'm a STEM PhD - not biology or medicine - but I'm used to assessing scientific papers and the status of the authors. The science behind fasting is sound. So, I started 5:2 and found weight loss was a happy side benefit.
I've been maintaining since about Easter 2014'

I work in academia, with focus on statistics, so I was drawn to 5:2 after reading the evidence. I've never done a diet in my life, but i was scared that my menopause, at age 46, would make me put on weight. It is so heartening to learn that you've been maintaining for so long, with success.

Mship that's fantastic news regarding IBS symptoms.

I've ended up with a unscheduled FD as I've been helping decorate today. I had a few slices of ham and my tea will be 500 cals but I've been up and down ladders and done school run to and fro so I will be slightly over but I'm going to count it.

Sometimes find the best and easiest are the unplanned ones.

May possibly even do a B2B FD tomorrow as I've got tradesmen in and lots of deliverys and self assembly to do.

FD today.

Had chicken, couscous, peppers & olives for dinner.

I'm trying not to kill the children before bed time.

Tomorrow I have a lunch do at work, so I'll skip breakfast and have a light supper.

Well done fellow fasters. Not going to lie, today has been really hard. Constantly up and down to the toilet. If I have lost any weight, it is all water. Soup for lunch and turkey chilli and salad for tea. Still hungry...only three hours until bed!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.livestrong.com/amp/article/308167-weight-loss-and-urination/

Is this the whoosh that you speak of BCF?

11 days free of IBS, definitely an IBS NSV for you, MShip

Note: your TDEE depends on weight, also age and height, not bodyfat %. See the TDEE calculator.
You can retain or even gain muscle, but if you lose total weight, then your TDEE will drop.

There have been a few papers which examined how many calories various parts of your body burns at rest.
The internal organs - brain, liver etc - burn the most, whereas muscles not very much - about 70 calls total per day iirc.

Muscles burn calories when you use them, i.e. in sport.
We aim to burn excess bodyfat, because fat is not an inert mass: in excess, particularly visceral fat (around the internal organs) sends out chemical signals which can hinder good functioning of the body.

V short intense bursts of HIIT, e.g. Mosely's few minute Fat Blasts, can help resolve issues of insulin metabolism which may be hindering fat loss in some people.
Longer exercise sessions, whether HIIT, lifting, cardio etc - are needed to actually burn calories

Dr Jason Fung (treats kidney patients) has reported that fasting seems the only way to increase the "set point" of the body, i.e. the weight to which it tries to return.
This suggests fasting can gradually increase the TDEE for people who have a lower TDEE than normal for their age, height & weight, e.g. people who have lost lost at least a couple of stone.
However, no evidence yet that fasting can increase TDEE for those whose TDEE agrees with the theoretical value.

< fist bumps > to LightsOn
Bodyfat increases in most women during pre / memo / post, but several of us have found that 5:2 works when other methods don't.
We just have to accept that our WOE can never be what it used to be.
Also, that weight loss is definitely slower than for younger women who have not yet entered this phase.

For anyone 5:2ing with their male OH:
Men usually lose more quickly than women at any age, whatever the diet. They usually do on 5:2 as well - even if they do 800 cal FDs
So prepare some tart rejoinders to smug remarks

Granny, Mship Congrats on your loose jewelry NSVs
If you want to have them adjusted, best to wait until you are at goal weight

Skinny Fat ?
I suggest everyone aim first for waist less than 0.5 x height, measured at the narrowest point, usually 2" above navel.
Some folk feel best at 0.45 or a bit below.

Check the amount of sugary treats and alcohol you consume, because these are often contributing to skinny fat

Do short intense exercise sessions, no longer than an hour, but really work hard
Steady state cardio, e.g. running or swimming for an hour, tends not to help so much and does make you hungrier.
If you want to run / swim then do sprint intervals for 10 -15 mins, plus a few mins warmup and cooldown

If you are really keen on exercise, I recommend building up to this:
HIIT 2-3 x weekly, or Mosely's Fat Blasts 5 x weekly
Lifting / resistance training 2-3 weekly

Stay strong, sarah and all the other Wednesday fasters Almost done
Time to drink some water and clean your teeth, to close the kitchen.

Sarah you are probably losing fat as well as water:

Geeky Fat Fact
A paper published in BMJ measured and found that
losing 10 kg of fat produces 28 kg carbon dioxide and 11 kg water.

For anyone wondering about conservation of mass in the fat-burning process, burning that 10kg fat requires 29 kg of oxygen to be inhaled.
This is another reason exercise can boost fat loss: it increases oxygen intake.

Fascinating stuff, BCF! The TDEE calculator I was using is this one: tdeecalculator.net which has a body fat entry box - should I just ignore that?

Managed to bed the children without strangling any of them! Success.

TheM you've inspired me to go and measure my body fat! I entered my wrist, forearm, waist & hip measurements into an online calculator and I come out at 27%. I do have a set of scales that check body fat, but they're complicated.

Mship As in the OP, I recommend the TDEE Calc from Mosely's site

All calculators first calculate BMR from a standard formula using gender, age, height and weight.
(BMR - Basal Metabolic Rate - is the calories you would burn if you slept all day)

Then, standard calculators - like the one Mosely copied - plug BMR, plus your activity level, into the Harris Benedict Equation to calculate TDEE.
The TDEE calculator you linked uses the Katch-McArdle Formula instead, which includes % bodyfat.

The big problem with K-McA is that unless you pay £250 to have a BodPod scan, or similar, at a lab, scales and gym machines that give your % bodyfat are notoriously inaccurate.

Despite what your gym may claim, they can vary a lot, depending on when you last ate / drank / had a wee or poop / exercised and how much of each.

e.g. the famous IF pioneer & bodybuilder Brad Pilon (Eat Stop Eat) wrote how an expensive gym Body Stat calculated his bodyfat as 22%, when the lab calculated 12%.

The most reliable method outside BodPods is probably BF Calc (also linked in the OP) which uses a tape measure and is accurate to +/- 3%, but only if you measure correctly.
It is used by US armed forces. Maybe what Maz uses too.

I still recommend the calculator from Mosely, because an inaccurate BF % in the one you linked will give inaccurate results.

btw, the differences you may have observed between standard TDEE calculators, which use Harris Benedict (no body fat) , is how they quantify and weight the activity level you provide.

Might try the fat measurement thing Maz!

Well I caved before bedtime and ate a banana. I felt really hungry and agitated and was worried about having another sleepless night. Such a contrast to Monday when I felt fine all day. I think I needed more protein than I had yesterday. Lesson learnt. DH was fine though

On a more positive note I weighed myself again (after 2nd fast as OP suggests) and today will be my new weigh day. I have lost another 3lbs since Monday so I had probably lost more last week which may have been masked by weekend drinking etc. That is just under 5lbs in total after 4 fasts. I have also lost approx half an inch off my waist and some of my clothes are starting to feel looser. Really happy in spite of the bumpy day yesterday.

Good luck to all the fasters today

Dusted off my body fat scales and they say I'm 46%! The calculator BC linked came in at 36% and the one I used was 27%.

Stick with the 27% one ! I suppose the numbers don't matter so much as a downward trend...

Well done on your SV, sarah That's good progress

If anyone gets really hungry before bed, then a banana or other fruit on its own is rather too high GI

• the raised insulin can make you hungrier if you are still awake an hour or so later, as well as hindering fat burning during the night.

I would suggest instead of the average 110 cals in a banana you try around 80 cals for a boiled egg, or a small piece of cheese / chicken breast / fish, or a few nuts, or plain Greek yoghurt.

I did consider boiling an egg but it was half past ten and I was very hangry! Nuts next time. Luckily I did have a better night's sleep - think I had worn myself out walking backwards and forwards to the loo all day!

Maz I really recommend just taking waist as a target.
That is a reliable indicator of visceral fat, which is the important kind wrt health.
Waist also has the most effect on your shape

Bodyfat is so difficult to calculate reliably.
Scales and gym machines vary wildly as I said, according to what and when you have consumed, or your recent activity level.

My expensive high-tech scales varied 6% within 20 minutes - I once did several readings in this time, just to check. Imagine how much they can vary over a few days.

With a tape measure, you avoid the fluctuations of readings, which is why they are the most accurate DIY method in practice - if done properly: you would have to be sure you are measuring correctly each time.
The most reliable calculator is the US military one I linked - there are a lot of rubbish calculators for all sorts of things online.

Caliper measurements by a PT - providing they do them properly - work on the same principle as the BF tape calculators, usually with a few more measurements for accuracy.

Inaccurate BF can make you unduly confident or unduly miserable, or just nuts with the fluctuations

Really interesting reading on body fat %. The scales in boots that I was using (before they went indefinitely 'out of order') gave a % reading and I had been pleased to see a downward trend. That was weeks ago though so would be interested to see what it is now - might try the online tool.

Good work on the fasts yesterday everyone!! Quacking - yours sounds especially good with all the exercise you must've got decorating too!!!

FD for me today. Planning a small salad for lunch and a mushroom omelette for tea. Fingers crossed!

Thanks, BCF! When I use the calculator I linked to, but without having entered the BF percentage, that gives me exactly the same numbers as the Mosely calculator, so that's nice and reassuring. I'm going to stick with those as the recommendations and ignore the BF numbers from my scale.

FD today, had a bit of a popcorn binge last night and am paying for it with a headache this morning. But I've pushed through, black tea only for breakfast, and have swum 1km before work.

Well done on all the progress this week everyone! All the science-y stuff has also been really interesting. I can understand why some of us keep it hush hush about fasting, people can be really cagey about routes to weight loss. When I told my mother what I was doing she said 'I don't know why you don't just calorie control because it works for me', when I had been doing that for a year or more with limited success because it didn't work for me mentally (which she knew). Luckily everyone else I've talked to about it has found it interesting and have been supportive, but I don't really go into it. It's just a part of my life now and I keep it to myself and get on with it. If anyone debates the efficacy or the safety of it I just say 'I'm happy with it, read the science'. Those who are genuinely interested will go do that, like my DH who isn't doing 5:2 with me but has taken on board some of the other elements like no snacking and 16:8.

No 'whoosh' for me or SV today (well 0.2 of a lb down) because TOTM is imminent - I feel puffed up like a pufferfish and my jewellery is welded on. I will just have to wait until next week as measurements are probably pointless today as well. However, I definitely look slimmer and am getting comments on that now. My face especially looks slimmer, plus I can properly see my waist again so my shape is returning. Those will be my NSVs for this week!