5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

so.... I bought a new scale after not being able to weigh last week and I've stepped on this morning and its no different, so in three further weeks of fasting I've not lost any more than my first week loss of 6lbs i must says its pretty disheartening to not see the scales move and not sure what else I can do. Apart from 1 weekend (which wasn't that bad) I'm Mfping everything, and i feel less bloated and hefty, so why is this not translating on the scales?? Any advice anyone?

I need to try and keep motivated as this could throw me off course big time and trigger my 'fuck it' switch - what's the point being so 'good' if there are no results

Hope others have a better weigh in than me - off to cry into my cup of tea now.....

Well done on successful FD granny and toffee!

Another pound off this morning. I'm going to a kettlebells class after I drop the kids at school. When I worked FT, I was never able to incorporate regular exercise into my week, I don't know how the rest of you do it! Since having kids and working PT/being on mat. leave it's easier because I can do a morning class. My body is definitely starting to change. Yesterday I caught myself flexing my arm muscles as I drank my coffee!

Well done MadDazzle

Anoldcharter - someone wiser than me will be along in a bit but last time I dieted successfully I found that if I lost more than a couple of pounds in one week my weight then stayed the same for a while almost in compensation. On average though there was a downward trend of between 1 and 2 lbs a week. I know it must be sooooo frustrating especially after a spectacular start but keep going! Do you feel differently otherwise? Measurements? Clothes? Happier?

Don't get discouraged, anold If you are mfping, so you know that you are around TDEE on NFDs, then you will lose fat over the weeks

You could be another one with fluid retention in the heat. Weight can fluctuate a few lb even under normal conditions, which can easily disguise a 1lb weekly loss for a while.

Or some people lose in fits and starts, rather than linearly, i.e. lose a few lb one week, then sts the next 3 weeks while their body adjusts, then lose the next chunk.

However, if you feel you have lost inches, then your old scales may have been wrong, i.e. you were heavier than you thought when you started.

And hi singinggoldfinch when you said you used to do JM I wondered if I remembered your name from the JM thread a few years back? I am getting revved up to start Shred again next week

Weigh under consistent conditions

• First thing in the morning, say after 2nd FD of the week, naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.
• Same scales, always in the same position on a level, hard floor - not carpet.
• (for digital) Switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on, so they have time to zero properly
• Step on, no jumping; keep still & don't shift your balance or lean to one side If weight seems inconsistent, replace batteries

Well done on your SV, Maz Admire your muscles, you've earned them
Good FDs, granny, toffee, goldfinch

Oh I once was weighing myself on a carpet - was having miraculous weight loss 😂

SV today! Finally!! Still early days but I'm finally under 17st - 16.13 to be precise.
A long way to go but MFP tells me I am 1st 8lb lighter than in February which is what I have to remind myself

thanks everyone i feel like i should have lost this week, my clothes fit better and i feel a little lighter, so my stomach (although huge) feels a bit flatter if that makes sense??. Maybe I was heavier on my old dodgy scales, who knows, but lets see what happens next week.

I just despair as i know a lot of the battle with me is psychological / emotional and i get my motivation from seeing the numbers going down... so i really don't want to sabotage myself and flip that fuck it switch back on - that's why i am only weighing 2 weekly, but i'll carry on this week and weigh after second FD next week and see how I get one.

Well done on the SVs have a fab weekend all

well done rocket

arnold keep it up, if you are feeling better that's a win already. I mentioned upthread that I had a "whoosh" where I dropped 3lb overnight - well the scales didn't shift at all for the next 10 days, and then only budged grudgingly down by 0.5. After that it started more steadily coming off again. I do weigh in pretty much daily, but although I'm metric-obsessed like you, I find a slight tick up gives me the grrrrr feeling to double down on my efforts.

Had a great FD yesterday, my first at 700kcal! Swam this morning before work, only 1km but I was running a bit late. I'll do a nice long 2km tomorrow night when I'm not under any time pressure.

The trick for exercise while working full time and having 2 under 5 kids for me? 1 - cycle to work, 2 - have a swimming pool across the road from work that I can pop into on my lunch hour. The latter isn't an option for most people, but I think building exercise into your daily working routine via your commute can work really well for a lot of people.

I'm with you anold , the battle is totally psychological with me too and I get very 'what's the point' when the numbers don't move. One of the hardest things to adjust to IME is accepting the NSV as actual victories when the scales don't move. People say 'you look much slimmer' or your clothes fit better but if that number doesn't drop it just doesn't feel true. It's been the hardest part for me so far I think, accepting that all the hard work doesn't always translate into a number reduction every week. But with reading the thread for support and a lot of mental effort, I am slowly learning to appreciate that all the little changes do count and trying not to allow my head to go down. It's not always easy though!

I try to rejig the numbers in my head sometimes and that helps i.e. I've had 3 weigh ins over 2 and a half weeks, lost some and stayed the same on one, but if you'd told me beforehand I'd be down 4lb in just over 2 weeks I'd think that was great. It takes the pressure off a little.

Good luck to all the weekend fasters!

Don't get disheartened Maz - I lost 8lb in my first fortnight then put some of that back on again so I didn't even just maintain . I never thought I would keep that level of loss though - just not realistic. I think it evens out in time though. Hang in there you've done do well already and you will make progress again soon I'm sure!

Sarah - wasn't me on the Jillian Michaels thread. I really need to get back on it - I paused in the crazy hot weather as just couldn't face it but there's no excuse now it's cooled down! Good luck with getting back into it.

Well, I braved the scales this morning after nearly 4 weeks of avoiding it due to week's break and broken scales - I'm 7lb down on last weigh. I'm very chuffed indeed. Now 10st 5 and my target weight is 10st so tantalisingly close!! I was 11st 3 when I started. Slowly but surely!!

Sorry - that should have been don't lose heart Arnold and well done Maz - getting confused!!

Fabulous losses this week everyone.

Maz kettlebells sounds hard work especially in this heat.

The dream is fully possible, honestly and especially on this amazing plan I don't want to call it a diet as it doesn't feel like it is. It can be slow but take every lb at a time and you will do it.

My planned night off went well last night. It was a all you can eat so was a real test but I made good choices and had lots of seafood and the most amazing sushi. I did find everything overly salty tho and ate a lot less than I would normally. 1lb 8 up on the scales today.

Tonight may be a issue as we are off to a open air tribute concert. It was a surprise from DH and we are heading off as soon as school finishes and won't be home until late. I'm tempted to carry on with my FD as planned as would imagine the food will all be fast food and I really don't want to go down that road not the day after a night out.

Thanks everyone merricat its hard isn't it but yes i need to rethink my successes, its a long process i need to work through but you are right, this thread is amazing for support and advice.

wow singing you are so close - well done

well done qucking on making healthy choices on an all you can eat buffet and that gain will soon go

Off to do some work now, log back in later

Congrats on your SV and milestone, rocket
Divide your goal into lots of mini goals and milestones, then always look at the next target, rather then the final goal.
Remind yourself how much you have achieved
Really big milestones are dropping into a lower BMI class

That's good progress with the FDs, Mship

duck Any "gain" seen the morning after a night out is mostly undigested food, plus retained water if there were a lot of carbs.
A good poop and wee will sort most of that.

re the concert today, I suggest you fast before - or just have a salad lunch - and then enjoy the evening out that your lovely dh organised.
If you can, avoid deepfried food - chips, nuggets - and junk - sweets, ice cream, pizza, pies, crisps etc
Enjoy salted popcorn (not sweet), maybe a BLT or whatever protein & veg options are available.

That's a looser clothes NSV, anold
I recommend you measure waist and hips now, then every 2 or 4 weeks
The scales can take time to catch up with the tape measure

Merricat is right: look at the trend over a few weeks, rather than worrying about blips or sts
Your body isn't a machine, that loses 1lb every week, but relax, be patient and if your NFDs average around TDEE then you will lose.

Congrats on your SV, Goldfinch
When you are on track, making good choices, then weighing 4-weekly can bring a motivating leap - it's long enough to smooth out blips.

sarah You have a flattering carpet
The scales at my gym "flatter to deceive" - they used to flatter by 2 kg, but as they've got saggier it's now by 3kg. I think it's a marketing trick !

Anoldcharter - I think everyone of us has been where you at some point and share how disheartening it can be. It's one of the reason that we all love NSVs so much!

Sarah - I used to like my MIL's scales the best - she had hers on carpet too and I always lost half a stone when I weighed myself at her house!

Well, I need to get out for a run later today - I have a 10K a week on Sunday and the holiday and very hot weather have meant I've not run in a while. And my race pack has not yet arrived, even though am told it was posted a week ago on 16th. Must be a sign I'm not meant to do it - right?

Have a good Friday everyone.

Food crisis problem solved.

Spoke to DH who has been to this venue before. He said it was all fast food vendors that were over priced and said he didn't fancy it, should we take a packed lunch to eat in the car before we go in.

So been shopping and I've made a tea of a 3 slices of cold meats, 2 boiled eggs a few cherry tomatoes and a small wedge of cheese. That should be below 500 calories (I think)

I hate any unscheduled changes so very happy now.

Well done everyone & enjoy the gig quckingduck.

I'm down 10 lbs from when I bought a scale a month ago so probably at least or over a stone down from when I started 5:2. Hoping to cross the 10 stone mark shortly (albeit it will likely be 10'9).

Aim is to drop another 10 lbs by the time I go on holiday in 4.5 weeks time. Might not be realistic but I'll give it a go.

Hips, waist and bust measurements also reduced by roughly 2 inches each.

Congrats on your SV, croaking

That's perfect, duck Great that your DH is on the same page and doesn't fancy junk.

Granny If it's so hot during training and / or the race, just go whatever once you can and don't be embarrassed about walking some stretches if you feel weak or overheated

• the heat is a brilliant excuse !

On training and racedays, in this heat, you will probably be losing a lot of salt and minerals.

So, I recommend a drink - during and post exercise - to replenish electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium), not just water.

I just posted a recipe for an electrolyte drink on 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3

Evening everyone and well done to all fasters and those with SVs. Some amazing weight loss on here, very inspiring!

I accidentally ate less than my TDEE today as I have been so busy so that hopefully makes up for the massive portion of M and S extremely chocolatey chocolate roll that I had yesterday

Ooooh Sarah! M&s extremely chocolatey chocolate roll is yum isn't it!?

I've just had a cheeky takeaway curry and am enjoying a glass of wine. Double naughty but it's been a long week! I used to polish off a whole curry and half a rice but couldn't eat anything like that this eve - I seem to have a much better gauge of when I've had enough. Not so sure that's the case with wine though!!!!!

Happy weekend everyone!