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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2017 22:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
anoldcharterorsomething · 20/06/2017 07:11

Morning everyone, some fantastic svs and nsvs Smile had a really busy weekend for fathers day and gone overy tdee a bit. FD today but it's so hot I don't feel hungry away!!! Hope other fasters have a good day... we can do it!!!

Oh, can anyone recommend any good reliable scales? Flowers

LosingItThisYear · 20/06/2017 07:21

0.7kg off last week. Not bad as I did a B2B then had a tricky weekend with too much eating and drinking!

I've got to have a good week, and am having a FD today and Thursday. Hope this hot weather stops me feeling hungry!

pangolinfan · 20/06/2017 08:16

Morning fasters and NFD-ers. It may be hard to sleep but I am loving this weather for making me crave giant, crunchy, cool, colourful salads, followed by a bowl of fresh berries. Much easier to stay on track, and very little cooking.

quckingduck22 · 20/06/2017 08:44

Well done to everyone who fasted yesterday and today! How did you find it?

Has anyone got any recipes for blenders that's on plan? I've just taken a delivery for a item my husband ordered for my birthday and it was unwrapped and the delivery person commented on said item. Oops I will have to act suprised.

was wondering if natural yoghurt berrys milk and some seeds (what seeds do people recommend?)

SingingGoldfinch · 20/06/2017 09:39

Morning! Anyone fasting with me today? I'm thinking this heat might make it easier but we shall see. It's ridiculously hot in my office with no aircon and have drunk 1L of water already so I'm sloshing!

Does anyone else find they get really bloated on and off. It's really getting me down. I just feel bigger rather than slimmer.

Good luck all those fasting. Water, water, water!!!

TheMShip · 20/06/2017 09:48

FD for me today, saw the scales dip down to 15st0.7lb (yes every .1 counts!) this morning and had a lovely NSV on Sunday. Needed a skirt for a party and found I fit comfortably in a M&S size 18, where I'd struggled being at the top of their 20 for ages. Skirt looks great too.

My birthday is in 2 weeks and my goal of getting under 15st (pre first baby weight) as a present to myself looks entirely achievable.

qucking I do banana and berry smoothies with a little coconut milk to help them blitz up. You could use milk or fat free yoghurt. I also freeze smoothies into ice lolly moulds for the kids, nice in this heat!

OuchBollocks · 20/06/2017 10:17

I'm with you today singing. So far a combination of heat and period pains mean eating couldn't be farther from my mind. I felt bloated and sluggish the last few days which was obviously my period coming, unexpected as DS is only 3 months and ebf including night feeds, grump.

Mmmango · 20/06/2017 10:40

Hi all - delurking to ask for some advice. Started 5:2 in January and have just reached my goal weight (yay!), so now need to think about maintenance.

I'm a shortarse so TDEE is only 1350 calories, and I've been keeping to that by only having two meals a day on non-fast days (lunch and dinner) and by cutting out alcohol and snacks (mostly). It's worked really well, I've lost 8 kilos this year, but I'm nervous about shifting to maintenance. I don't want to lose any more weight but I'm worried that I'm currently 'in the zone' and comfortable with my 2 fast days etc, and that if I change anything, it'll all go to pot.

I'll definitely continue weekly weight checks for a while to make sure I'm staying at this weight... any more tips BCF or other maintainers for small changes to shift into maintenance mode?

Sarahlouboo · 20/06/2017 11:05

Good luck fasters today!

Great question Mmmango- I am quite good at the losing weight bit, not so good at the maintenance Grin. Will watch with interest. Congrats on reaching your target weight Smile

I have some questions for more experienced 5:2-ers too. When calculating my TDEE on NFDs should I add more for any exercise that I do or ignore exercise? And can I save calories for a blow out at the weekend? I have a beer festival this weekend so I know I will no doubt go over my allowance!

BettyOBarley · 20/06/2017 12:09

Hi everyone! Just wanted to pop in as I just started 5:2 last week. I've done 3 FDs so far and am finding them surprisingly easy in terms of not feeling too hungry.
I weighed after my 2nd FD and had lost 5.3lb! So was thrilled about that. I want to lose about 4 stone so plenty to go. I've been splitting my cals between lunch and dinner and might work towards just dinner but I tried this on the first FD and felt very woozy by 3pm so had to wolf down a quick babybel and some raw carrot!
I did a FD yesterday singing in the heat and didn't really feel hungry but had a banging headache the entire day despite drinking two High-5 drinks and loads of water.
Does anyone else feel really lethargic the day after a FD? I feel quite energised on a FD but this the second time now where I just can't be bothered getting off the sofa the day after!

BettyOBarley · 20/06/2017 16:00

Also does anyone find themselves sensitive to sugar the following day?
I've eaten a kitkat and feel a bit jittery and weird. Noticed this after the last FD too.

anoldcharterorsomething · 20/06/2017 19:44

Well done mship and betty
FD finished here at 495 cals... not long to go now tues fasters Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2017 19:54

Great work, fasters !

Well done on your SV and skirt NSV, Mship

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2017 20:01

Excellent start, Betty and well done on your SV

Headaches
Often happen when you are getting used to fasting and are usually caused by slot salt and minerals.
So, worse in this heat

Tip Glug down a teasp Marmite or a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (each only 10 cals) to replenish the lost salt.
Mid-morning and / or afternoon to help avoid headaches

Also, drink water and try to avoid more than 1 glass of fizz daily

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2017 20:19

Sarah There are no extra cals for exercise on FDs (only extra for BFers)
You allow for exercise cals on NFDs, via the TDEE calculation - Mosley recommends setting the activity level to one below what you think, as most gadgets and people overestimate exercise

TDEE is a rough average over the 5 NFDs, so you can choose to eat under on weekday NFDs to bank cals for the weekend or a social occasion

Mango and others thinking about maintenance

Why people usually regain - on ANY diet
Anyone who has lost more than about 10 lb may find their body tries for a year or more to return to a previous "set point"
Unlike conventional daily diets, 5:2 preserves muscle. However, losing weight still usually reduces TDEE, simply because it is a function of weight, also of age (you can't eat at 40 the way you did at 20, or even at 30)

Also, adaptive thermogenesis i.e. the body dials down TDEE below the TDEE of someone naturally that weight without dieting.

That won't be significant if you've only lost 10-15 lb, but Varady said that someone who loses 50lb typically has a real TDEE 15% below the theoretical value for their body stats.
After large weight loss, this can take a few years to increase to the normal value

What helps: Dr Jason Fung found that regular fasting as part of your maintenance plan gradually resets the set point to a higher value

If you have 1-2 weekly FDs, then you can probably eat to theoretical TDEE on the NFDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2017 20:21

Possible Maintenance Plans
5:2 and eat back the deficit
6:1 or 13:1
daily 16:8 within TDEE

All maintenance plans:
+NO snacking

  • try to keep within nhs alcohol guidelines and be sensible about treats
  • weigh at least weekly and return to 5:2 whenever you regain 4lb, e.g. right after a holiday
  • Drink plenty of water
  • Regular exercise, at least a daily walk. Short bursts of HIIT a few times weekly help your metabolism
OP posts:
Sarahlouboo · 20/06/2017 20:46

Thanks BCF, extremely helpful Flowers! Have really enjoyed NFD - possibly too much thinking about your advice on TDEE and activity levels so will bear that in mind.

Well done Tuesday fasters. I am fasting again tomorrow then trying to be a bit less giddy on NFDs up until the weekend!

MazDazzle · 20/06/2017 22:30

Elephant ankles? Ha! I have never heard of this expression Rocket. Sums mine up completely.

Found an old notebook which I'd used to track my weight in. It's reassuring to know I'm almost at my pre-DC3 weight and less than a stone away from the weight I was before I had any children (incidentally I thought I was enormous back then! Oh to be that enormous again Grin). It's such a psychological milestone! Well done TheMship for getting there.

Less than three weeks to go before my summer holiday, so I need to keep things reigned in! Holiday clothes still gathering dust in a zip lock bag. I haven't tried them on for two years. Feel a bit bloated at the moment, so I'll hold off digging them out. I'm such a coward!

SingingGoldfinch · 20/06/2017 22:31

Well done Tuesday fasters! I'm done on about 515 so a little over but nothing too drastic. I ended up higher than planned as I went for a smoked mackerel fillet with salad for dinner rather than the vegetable Kiev I was planning - although higher in Kcals the mackerel was generally a healthier choice in terms of overall nutritional value etc.

Still feeling bloated and getting a bit fed up with it now. Busy googling 'flat tummy' tips!! I'm not expecting miracles but I'm generally feeling larger in tummy than before 5:2 which is pretty demotivating.

Thanks for more helpful advice BCF! What would we do without you?!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/06/2017 08:40

Goldfinch Many people swell up in heat.
It is retained water, plus other fluid, because your body is struggling to cope with the heat

Help your body, by drinking more water, aim for 2litres daily in this weather
Also, cool baths / cool showers / swimming
and avoid alcohol and junk food, nibbling etc
However, you may just have to wait until it gets cooler, before swelling really goes

With your weight loss, you will have lost fat around the waist.
Have you been monitoring and comparing to initial measurements before the heath wave?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/06/2017 08:41

Or of course, if you are constipated, that will cause bloat

OP posts:
SingingGoldfinch · 21/06/2017 08:55

Thanks BCF. Good advice as always.

It's useful to know that bloating could be down to the heat. I have been drinking at least 3L of water a day so I think I have that covered - and I'm not constipated so it's not down to that. Unfortunately I didn't take measurements at the start of 5:2 so which makes comparisons hard - I'm just going on how I feel. I also haven't weighed for nearly 4 weeks so don't even know if I've actually lost or gained. I definitely feel better generally but would just like to feel like my body is shrinking just a bit rather than bloating. Maybe once it cools down I'll notice the difference. Fingers crossed!!

TheMShip · 21/06/2017 09:27

Maz well done on getting to pre-DC3 weight! I'm inching ever closer to pre-DC1 weight, which is still pretty high but will feel oh so good.

Interesting reading about the maintenance, thank you for all the information BCF. I expect I'm going to hit a plateau at some point where the 800kcal FDs are not enough to continue losing, and am considering simply maintaining that plateau (with the 5:2 + 800kcal FDs) for a few months to allow my body to adjust its metabolic rate gradually. Then when I feel ready, drop the FDs down to 500kcal.

I have set my TDEE on MFP using activity level 'sedentary', even though I cycle to work 5 days a week and swim 1500m 3 days a week, which would put me in the 'moderately active' category. I noticed yesterday in the pool that my 100m pace time is continuing to get faster. I'm down to 1:58, was 2:15 when I started. I'm currently 3rd of the women in this month's 1000m challenge at the pool!

SingingGoldfinch · 21/06/2017 09:30

Amazing swimming achievement Ship!! That must've given you a boost!

SingingGoldfinch · 21/06/2017 09:44

Maz - also just seen that you're nearly at pre-DC3 weight! That's an amazing achievement!!!

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