5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your SV, Emison You've made good steady progress and you look well on track for June.
Is that your final goal weight, or have you more to go after that ?

Thanks BigChoc! I've gave myself two years to lose three stone as this will take me to a normal BMI. I've gone from 31.2 to 28.9 so obese to overweight. I figured two stone in the first year will be doable and then 1 stone next year, providing my medication stays the same and my thyroid behaves itself! Then I'll go from there. 20 years ago I was 8.13 but I think those days are long gone!!!

Checking in to report a successful FD here.

Had chicken & veg Thai curry. It was delicious. Took DC for ice-cream (our usual Thurs treat) and managed to stay strong!

Fab news, well done Emison!

A steady NFD here - was the right choice I think, BigChoc - you are right, was DDs birthday and is mine this weekend too - but will be less of a massive thing now I'm old

Woohoo! I have lost 5kg since 9th December, which is just over 7% of my body weight. What better is clothes banished to the back of my wardrobe are being worn now very happy. I've got another 4-6kg to go

Thanks bigchoc for all your information and help you've really helped me get my head around this and how to make it work

Weight loss on this diet seems to be slower than on something like low carb am I right?

I find fast weight loss motivating so must get my head round it!

Hatemylife it depends on how much you have to lose and also how much you eat on NFD, but ultimately, this way of life gives slower results.

Tha (amazing!) flip side of this is that you don't pile weight back on. I've had weeks and even months where I've stayed away from the scales and only thrown in the odd FD, yet I've barely gained. On WW of SW a few weeks off and I'd gain a stone!

There's no yo-yo-ing with 5:2.

I'm in a similair boat to you: trying to shift baby weight! It was very slow initially, but since getting a hold of my NFD it's coming off quicker.

Well done on your SV, Newman
Losing that % of bodyfat makes a noticeable difference

Well done on nailing another FD, Maz It's always good when you are able to maintain fairly easily

Sounds like everyone is doing great!

Struggling this week, great FD Monday followed by a relatively ok NFD Tuesday, I fasted all day and then we shared an M&S meal deal but I had substantially less than half! Wednesday I had a client lunch so skipped breakfast for damage limitation.

NFD yesterday was good and, planning next fast either today or tomorrow, am undecided as yet.

Not planning to weigh this week as getting to end if TOTM so will weigh next Friday.

Mylife
Rate of Loss
. Generally, those with a few stone to go, lose fairly quickly for several weeks, even 3-4 lb weekly.
. In contrast, lean women already within, or nearly, healthy BMI trying to get ripped, may progress at 1lb per month.
. For biological reasons, men tend to lose more quickly on any WOL, grrrh !
. Pre-meno / meno makes weight loss tougher, but fasting is probaly the most effective way of losing weight at those life stages.

The average longterm is 1lb weekly, which soon mounts up over the weeks & months; but feels fairly gentle on the body.

If loss is slower than expected:
For many people, the type of food makes a difference:

• Alcohol and sugary junk switch the body from fat-burning to fat storage, especially around the waist.
  So junky / boozy WOL slows down loss.
  It can also mean hidden calorie bombs

• Even a healthy wholegrain high carb diet may not suit those who are insulin resistant. They need to lower the GI of their diet, i.e. moderate or even low carb

The speed of weight loss, provided you nail your FDs is also dependent on your NFDs and on your TDEE:

• If you average over TDEE on NFDs, then you are eating back the weekly FD deficit, which slows loss.
  If you frequently binge, you may have no deficit at all and sts
  Calculate your TDEE at one activity level below what you think (Mosely advises this, as most folk overestimate)

• A short, sedentary woman with say a 1500 TDEE will lose more slowly than a taller active woman of 2000 TDEE, because basic maths means the weekly FD calorie deficit (if both keep to TDEE NFDs) for the shorter is 2000 instead of 3000.

Tips to boost loss

• mfp for at least a week, for a reality check on NFDs and to highlight calorie bombs, portion size.
• If you exercise, aim for sedentary TDEE on 1-3 NFDs per week
• If you have a few stone to lose, aim for TDEE of your goal weight on 1-3 NFDs weekly
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines and 2:5 your sugary / junky treats - just have them on 2 NFDs
• Combining low carb with 5:2 boosts both methods If you find low carb restrictive, you can cycle carbs: make the FDs and 1-2 NFDs low carb, with 1-2 NFDs medium carb and have higher carb the other NFDs.

It can be useful to stop weighing during totm, OverTired to avoid discouragement of the temporary blip
If you've managed to avoid totm munchies, you should find you are back on track afterwards, with release of retained water on the FD following
< I so enjoy being POST-meno ! >

FD today. Was up all night with the baby though so going to find it hard.

Good morning - it's really motivating to hear other people's stories and Big Choc's clear, sensible advice.

I had to abandon my planned 2nd FD on Thursday. I'm not usually an emotional eater but I had just submitted an application for a job I really, really want so was feeling jittery and sick . Had a normal meal to settle myself before going to work in the evening. I'll fast tomorrow instead as I'm doing the evening shift again and family are out so I won't have to think about their meals or come home to leftover food.

I was thinking about swapping my weigh in day from Monday to Friday as that will be straight after I've completed my two usual FDs. I did weigh myself today, although I've only fasted once this week, and am showing a further loss since Monday. Might give it another week of Monday weigh ins and see how it goes.

Hi all, ope you don't mind me joining. I am usually on the BSD thread and managed to lose over 30lbs on that diet last year. I want to have a decent go at 5:2 now for a bit of a refocus and also for any health benefits. Am very drawn to the note in Bigchocs OP about this being a way to lose weight without losing as much muscle as on other diets as I am trying to lift weights/ exercise at the same time. I actually did 5:2 in the early single digit threads ( and even had a one day try at up down diet before the original horizon show in 2012) but my non fast days were an unhealthy disaster and I just started to feel unwell and not lose weight on it so will be interesting to see with all the new advice and tips if I find it more of a success. I would like to lose 10lbs then switch to 6:1. Sorry for the me me me post will catch up on thread and repost this eve.

FD going well. Ate nothing bar one tea until 1.30 when I had broccoli and spinach soup. Have saved most of my cals for dinner so will have courgettes fried with garlic, lemon and chilli, a crumbling of feta and a mini wrap.

Second fast day went well, I managed to last until dinner again, and remembered to drink ( much) more water and less caffeinated drinks, so didn't wake up with a head ache today! I was wondering after reading all the talk about weighing if its important to weigh myself regularly, I not keen on scales and would rather go on how my clothes fit. I find scales are quite demoralising for me, if I know I have been 'good' but it's not reflected on the scales, has anyone else ditched the scales?

Hello everyone!
I'm on week 2 of 5:2 and my 4th FD. I have a stone and a half to lose (last weigh in I'd not lost anything!) And DH has 3 stone to lose (and lost 3lbs in the first week).

I wondered if anyone combined with 16:8 on NFD and if they feel this had helped with weight loss. I hate eating breakfast so it wouldn't be too big a stretch to do 16:8 on NFD.

Also does anyone notice any strange symptoms on FDs? I seem to have tinnitus on fast days..... Otherwise I feel fine but it is getting a bit intrusive. Is this common or am i doing something wrong?

Good luck with the job application, Malmsey
Most folk like to weigh weekly on the morning after FD2 - it reduces blips of undigested NFD food & water retention

Serial No need to weigh weekly if it worries you.
I'd recommend weighing every 4 or 6 weeks though, just to check you are progressing, because that is long enough to smooth out temporary blips.

Hi namechanging Tinnitus isn't a reported symptom of fasting, but it is generally something that can happen if you are under too much physical / emotional stress.
So fasting may just raise your stress level sufficiently for that, or it may be coincidence. You should be able to relax more once you get used to fasting.

As I posted, men almost always lose more quickly than women on any WOE, even if they break the rules - so get your response ready for any gloating

If you haven't had any initial loss, then almost certainly you are overindulging on NFDs
If you've been a few stone overweight for some years, then you have probably got used to eating well over TDEE, without realising.
NFDs are "maintenance / normal eating" days, not "diet days" but many folk need to train themselves as to what there bidy needs to maintain, not gain.

Many folk find 16:8 on NFDs helps control intake - provided you actually cut out a meal and don't just squeeze in the same amount into a shorter time.
It is also useful to calculate TDEE, just to know how many calories you should be aiming for.
Many folk have got quite a shock, after mfp for a week's reality check

Welcome, yumyum

Varady's human study on her ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) showed that even non-exercisers only had 1% of their loss from muscle (typical diets have 25%, whereas sleb maple syrup crash diets may be up to 50% muscle)

Those who did resistance training on ADF lost no muscle at all
So, since 5:2 has fewer FDs, you shouldn't lose any muscle - especially as you are lifting weights

Sooooo hungry

Thank you for your replies. Just broke my fast with a massive salad and fish... Had to put washing up liquid on children's leftovers so I wasn't tempted.
Having a very early night tonight so I don't undo all my hard work!

I'm not currently doing 5:2 but I wanted to pop by to say thank you for the thread title, which was exactly what I needed to read after a few days of self sabotage. I can pick it up again and still be further along than if I had never started

Hang on, Mylife Not long to go. Have a cup of Bovril to warm you up ?
When you've finished your planned food for the day, drink a glass of water, then clean your teeth thoroughly to tell yourslef you've finished this FD

Welcome, oldbooks
Noone here is perfect; sometimes women especially expect too much of the mselves.
If you have a few rubbish days, don't beat yourself up; just move on and get back on track as soon as you can
So, why not join us when you feel ready

NameChanging I luffs your washing up liquid trick !
Brilliant idea from a clearly determined woman.

Just reading back a bit well done on all the fasts and losses everyone.

Thanks bigchoc for the info....wow amazing that zero muscle loss is possible.

Exactly OldBooks! We'll be here when you're ready to tackle a FD, cheering you on.

Namechanged I do 16:8 on 3 of my NFD and only have 2 meals on these days. Definitely helps me.

Another 1.5 lb off this week. That's 18.5 lb in total. Nearly at one and a half stone.

I feel fabulous! I've still a fair way to go to achieve my pre-pregnancy weight, but I'm enjoying the body I have right now. I have a swanky event tomorrow, so I shall be glammed to the max (this never happens!).