5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your FD & exercise, winterwitch and all the other Monday fasters.
Polpette If you want to start FD exercise, short blasts usually wotk best.
I suggest the 5 minute Fat Blasts on 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP.
You could build up gradually to say the Shred or a spin or lifting class

Morning Everyone
FD yesterday finishing at 539 calories.
Just got off the scales and am 3lb down.
Also got new underwear at the weekend I have dropped 2 band sizes. 38gg to a 34g. Very happy bunny here.

So because of a bad back I enlisted the help of a personal trainer. I've had her for a year and because of my lifestyle couldn't / don't really want to if honest follow her high protein no carb blah blah. I have dropped my body fat from 43% to 40% still too high. So I skipped in to her last night really happy with my 1kg weight loss but my body fat has crept up (40.3). Has anyone else had this problem? I excercise a lot 15000 steps a day & two Pilates classes a week I also eat well cook all meals from scratch etc. This is my first weight loss in a year & she really put a dampener on it.

Well done on your SV, LadyC and on the undercrackers NSV

Your bodyfat almost certainly hasn't increased, Hollowlew unless you have mainlined sugar & booze on NFDs.

Bodyfat is notoriously difficult to measure: on scales or even the "body stat" machines at the gym, you can have huge variations depending on:
when you last exercised / ate / drank / pooped / peed, also time of day, sweat etc.
So, even on the same machine, you can't compare

Calipers and the calculators based on tape measures have about +/ - 3% error, even when done expertly.

On my supposedly good Tanita scales, I had a 6% variation when I did several measurements within 20 minutes (I wanted to check accuracy)

The best indication is to follow the trend over at least 2 weeks (because if water fluctuations) of waist / height. Aim is to get this within 0.5

5:2, like most types of intermittent fasting, burns fat and presevres muscle.
In contrast, typical daily calorie-reduced diets have arund 25% of lost weight being lean mass and syrupy water crash diets up to 50%

Cl0ver, I make a sort of hot chocolate with cocoa powder and soy cream, with artificial sweetener. If you were to use a dash of almond milk, it would come in at about 25cals. I have it as a break from coffee sometimes.

Oh, and Hollolew2, fantastic! A whole kilo down!

And congrats on all the other SVs and NSVs recently - too many to list!

FD today - I find I am fasting about 3 days a week and this keeps my weight going down and also controls my appetite better.

Hope all fellow fasters have a good day today

That's fantastic Daisie how do you fit in the third FD if you don't mind me asking?? And the willpower!? Well I'm having an awful NFD, eating all in sight, feeling crap, don't know if something is working on me like the cold or flu, just ache all over, really need to stop picking, I'm actually annoying myself - FD tomorrow, really need to get my head in check 😠

Thank you WhiteWinterWitch

I find three FD works better for me otherwise I lose some weight then put a bit back on and then lose it again. It keeps me motivated and helps me have better control over what I eat. Previously I was fasting Monday and Thursday. I found I started to eat a little too much on the NFD. Doing three FD keeps me more focused. In terms of fitting it in, it is easy. I only have breakfast and dinner on FDs. It means I don't need to prepare any lunch.

The willpower for me has come that I can now fit back in my clothes again. Just a few months ago, I got so overweight I had to just wear two dresses over and over because none of my other clothes fit me. I just put on trousers on this week that have been in the wardrobe for months that I couldn't wear because they no longer fit me. They fittted!!!

Best of luck for tomorrow's FD. Don't think of NFD as being the sort of day where you can eat whatever you want. Record what you eat on my fitness pal. It helps you keep a track of what you are eating and at what point you need to stop. I have found the support here very helpful

Thanks Daisie after having such a rubbish day (eating wise) your words have really helped. Sometimes my nfds are nearly harder than my fds. And like yourself I have lots of lovely clothes sitting in the wardrobe that I WILL fit into again - well done on your weight loss and hard work, and thanks for the encouragement, really needed that this evening

Congrats on the clothes Nsv, Daisies Great progress. Now you can enjoy more of your wardrobe

WinterWitch On NFDs, the most important strategy to get them under conteol is
No snacking / grazing / picking - that just keeps your insulin raised and your hunger raised too.
Eat 3-4 decent meals, no snacks between.
Move any "healthy" snacks - fruit, yoghurt etc - to be lart of a meal

Next most important is drink more water

Just retrain your habits and you'll enjoy your fav clothes again too, winterwitch

You are welcome WhiteWinterWitch we all have rubbish days where we eat too much. That's fine, as long as it is one day and doesn't turn into two, three etc. Maybe plan your meals on NFDs in the morning and don't stray from that plan. Think of eating too much on NFDs as jeopardising your fasting

Keep up the good work and hopefully you will be back into your wardrobe of lovely clothes too

Do pop in and report regularly, happy to give encouragement. I have certainly received a lot from BigChoc!

Thanks Daisie & Bigchoc FD for me today, all rearing to go for it, evening meal planned out and a busy day ahead (straightens hat and puts a strike through yesterday ) good luck Thursday fasters will check in later

Good luck Thursday fasters !

Fasting today. Should be relatively easy as I am taking DM to a hospital appointment late afternoon / early evening which will take ages!!!!
Seem to be loosing 1.5lbs per week which is fine by me. i would love to lose another 7lbs before xmas.

Then the most important thing is to get back "into the zone" after xmas to prevent the upward spiral of weight gain.........
Is everyone else planning to keep the fast days as normal or will you drop them for 1 week (or longer)?

I've had to amend my fasts slightly in response to ?possibly hormonal? (Baby is starting to gradually ease off BF so wondering if my hormones are shimmying around) migraines that I've been getting for the last 4 weeks every FD. So, whereas psychologically I prefer to only eat once (dinner), I have tweaked it so I eat 3 small meals to stave off the migraine feeling. Also, sadly, feel that my espresso pre-fasted-workout was a contributor
so that's had to go. Today is my second FD under 'new regime' so struggling a bit! Need to post here to keep myself in the zone.

Big Choc, having read around etc, I was wondering if you could clarify something wrt IF. You mentioned upthread that "5:2, like most types of intermittent fasting, burns fat and presevres muscle.
In contrast, typical daily calorie-reduced diets have arund 25% of lost weight being lean mass and syrupy water crash diets up to 50%"...how does this compare to, say, BSD? Why is that not the same as 'daily calorie-reduced'? I get the rationale behind stress/hormesis of 500cal days, but not sure how this aligns with the idea of mini-fasts (which play into the idea that as long as the weekly deficit is sufficient one will lost weight). Surely if it is the stress of the VLC FD, having 3 (say) mini fasts won't serve the same purpose? I only ask as I am so against fad-dy diets and want to be clear on the science behind why I love this WOL!

I've had a few health issues these last few weeks and had been living on toast basically. I ended up putting 1lb back on but I lost that again last week. This week I've lost another 0.5lb so I'm back on track All I know is...bread is not my friend

Kitchen closed, 510 calories and it was fine, being busy definitely helps (a lot of cleaning done today!) Samanddcj I was actually thinking about how my fds would fit in around Xmas so I marked them in on the calendar up to the 22nd December, then Xmas celebrations then back to it for a FD on the 27th, then back to two days first week of January (well that's the plan roughly ). Hope everyone else got through their FD ok 😉

Well done Thursday fasters !

Congrats on your SV, Samandcj That's steady progress at a good rate of knots.
If you stay focused and don't start over-indulging on NFDs, then another 7lb looks very doable for you before Xmas

Well done on your SV and getting back on track, Emison
Many folk find bread is too moreish; also when lots of slices come with butter / pnut butter / cheese etc that can pile on the lb.
Better starchy carbs are boiled or baked potatoes or sweet potatoes, boiled rice, quinoa, couscous, bulghur wheat. Just watch carb portion size - about 100g cooked is for one meal
Boost beans, lentils, peas - they have protein as well as starchy carbs and are excellent for blood sugar control

Xmas:
For most vacations, we recommend a break from fasting.
However, the Xmas-New Year vacation seems particularly dangerous wrt weight gain:

. Feasting can run over 5 weeks, e.g. my first Xmas do is 30 November, just after our Thanksgiving do on 24 Nov !

. Many folk lose their focus and their routine, then don't get back to fasting for months afterwards.

Tactics:

• Important: if you decide to have a break, then mark in your calendar the date of your next FD, e.g. 3 Jan 2017 - so you have 2 Jan to organise the FD menu
• At a minimum, during the vacation, I recommend keeping the No Snacking No Nibbling rule and enjoy all the festive meals, but nothing between.
• Plan some 16:8 days, i.e. skip breakfast on the busy days; gives you more prep time.
• Ideally, keep at least 1 FD per week.

Well done on your FD White

Thanks Daisie weighed this morning and have 2lbs off, which I'm delighted with given all my eating out last week and my disastrous eating on Wednesday. Now for a few sensible nfds 😉

That's really great White - a step close to getting into those lovely clothes

Enjoy your next few NFDs. I am on a FD today - last one of the week and then I can have the weekend off, sensibly of course!

Good luck to all Friday fasters

Are you me Daisies? I too have been doing more of a 4:3 than a 5:2 but wasn't sure I should say anything on here for fear of getting into trouble, from who I don't know! I'm on week 8 now (name change) and the initial idea was to do 4:3 for the first couple of weeks and then switch to 5:2 but I felt very good on the 4:3 so have taken it a week at a time. I am (probably) going to drop to 5:2 from next week though as I'm now finding on non FD that I'm eating 'normally' and I only have about another stone to lose.

White, like Daisies I've found motivation in clothes, lots of things now fit properly that were straining at the seams or just couldn't get on.

Oh and by the way I sometimes find NFD harder than FD White though I did find my second FD this week really tough. I haven't slept well at all this week which doesn't help, a ridiculously early wake up this morning so not sure how today's FD will go. I have a number of social occasions next week so I am going to keep those in mind today to spur me on. There will definitely be no throwing cake away next week Congrats on your weight loss White and good luck to all today's fasters.

Five2Ate - good to hear there is someone else doing 4:3 too!

I have varied what I have done since I started. I started off on 5:2 then moved onto mini fasts days then back to 5:2 and finally 4:3. It suits me best as it keeps the rhythm of fasting going. I prefer the weight loss too as it is faster.

I know what you mean about NFD too, yesterday all I could think about was food and what to eat where today I am on a FD, and I am not concerned about it at all. The weeks do vary I find. I have found the FDs becoming a lot easier although I did struggle at first