5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi all, new here, got advised to check this board out due to me desperality needing to lose weight ( about 5 stone needs to go ) but I struggle to eat more than once a day if that, some days I just don't bother, when I do I'm lucky if I hit 500/ 800 calories. I practically live off cups of coffee. I do very little exercise apart from cleaning the house and General housework stuff. Rest of the time I'm either driving or sorting the kids out. Iv very little self confidence / mid life crisis thing going on where I see myself as a ugly hippo, so I don't go out, drink or socialise.

Mysticstar I'm sorry to hear that you feel so bad about yourself at the moment, it's depressing that as women our self-worth is so tied up in how we look that it stops us being sociable or feeling good about ourselves. I've been there too and it's a rotten place.

Without wanting to sound like a shit motivational poster - please do try to remember that there is so much more to you than what you look like (easier said than done I know!).

I'm sure someone more experienced with 5:2 than me will be able to give you good advice on what to do if you're currently in a bad pattern of low calorie eating every day and how to get started.

I hope 5:2 works for you, I must admit that I'm still in shock that it's working so well and so easily for me. I keep reminding myself that the weeks, months and years will pass regardless so if I keep plodding on at 1lb a week I will get there.

Firstly I'm back after a long while of not doing 5:2 . I've had a successful week but my old problems of not being able to sleep on 5:2 is back anyone got any suggestions? 5:2 makes me buzz!!!!
Mysticstar I think all of us go through some kind of problems when we have kids / family we lose our sense of self. I would suggest going out for a walk short one if you like . You notice so many things you don't normally see when you walk. If you like it get a dog ( rescue) the kids would love it so would you . People love to talk to dog walkers & the dog will give you unconditional love which is something all of us crave .

Welcome back, Hollowlew

Wrt sleep:
Fasting does tend to make you very alert, which can cause difficulty getting to sleep until your body gets used to this.

What can help sleep:

• keep most of your FD calories for supper, at least 2 hrs before bed On NFDs, if supper is large, finish is 3 hr before bed
• no caffeine, including black tea, after 3 pm
• in the 3 hrs before bed, no exercise harder than a walk
• in the 60 mins before bed, no electronics whatsoever: no TV, phone, tablet, Kindle, gaming etc
• Aim for regular bedtime, regular winddown, e.g. bath, pampering, reading a paper book
• Keep bedroom quiet & dark. Effective curtains. Any electronic alarm clock should be covered so that the light is not visible - the wavelength is disruptive to sleep.

Thank you BigChoc also I get freezing cold but today on a NFD I felt a lot better after I ate ( had a FD yesterday) any tips to combat that?

Hi Mystic I think you need to eat properly and more than once a day. Once a day is fine on your fasts days as long as you keep to 500 calories.

You can work out what your TDEE is in the top post. Eat to the calories advised on 5 days and fast on two non consecutive days and your weight will start to shift.

You are not a fat ugly hippo and you can start to change the situation you are in

Hi MysticStar 
Our current society is toxic in many ways and one of these is making people feel "lesser" or "other"for weight, height, facial features, skin colour, poverty, age ....

If anyone is cruel or disrespectful towards you because of size, then they have serious flaws as a human being.
In contrast, scales measure only weight, nothing whatsoever to do with your value as a person.
So, please think of your positive qualities like kindness and courage, both of which I'm sure you have.

Losing Weight
Even someone within healthy BMI would lose weight on 800 cals daly, so let's try to analyse why you aren't:

If you are drinking several cups of coffee - with milk and sugar - that could be several hundred extra cals per day, which are providing no real nutrition, but likely send your mood on a rollercoaster and wreck sleep.

Also, do you have biscuits or cake with it sometimes ?
When we are feeling down, it is tempting to consume easy treats like cake, lattes, biscuits, crisps etc also alcohol, all of which can sneak in several hundred more cals per day, without you noticing and without nourishing your body.

So, I recommend you don't start 5:2 yet.
Instead, weigh yourself in the morning , then continue as normal and mfp for at least one full week, noting absolutely everything you eat or drink.
I know that's a pain, but to change what is happening, you first need to know exactly what is happening.

Weigh again the morning after that week. If you then find you genuinely only consume under 7,000 cals in a typical week, but you have still not lost weight
(because sometimes mfp reduces consumption and people start losing)

then please see your GP
to run tests on thyroid function and any other conditions they may suspect
Having mfp evidence to back you up would make them pay ttention.

However, if you find you consume quite a lot more calories than you thought, just the wrong type, then 5:2 could help you lose weight and we'll support you in that goal here

Also, if you are not losing weight, despite eating well below normal maintenance, then your GP needs to review any medications prescribed:

some ADs, steroids etc are notorious for large weight gain - they can increase appetite and change the hormonal balance to increase fat storage, which can make weight loss very difficult indeed.

Morning all.
Any weekend fasters ?
Not me today, because our gym is starting a monthly "brunch" (12:00) which sounds good after morning lifts and spin.
I have a foot massage booked afterwards.
Bliss

Cold on FDs ?
. Get active for a few minutes - just walk around the office / upstairs / do a chore.
. Also add extra clothes / have hot soup / drinks

Hollowlew It's quite common on FDs, because the reduced amount of food produces less body heat
If you also have cold fingers & toes, this is because fasting increases the blood flow to bodyfat - ref adipose tissue blood flow in J Clinical Sci -to help move it to your muscles where it can be burned as fuel.
Due to this, micro-vasodilation occurs in your fingers & toes to compensate, so these may feel cold

Hi BC. I fasted yesterday until 7 or so. I was teaching all day up until about 5.30, then had to drive 20odd miles home. Not having to worry about breakfast or lunch just takes a lot of hassle out of the equation.

Welcome to the thread, Mystic (and to other new/returning posters). This is where you start to recover your sense of self-worth and self-belief. Have a read through the Inspirational 5:2 thread. You too can be one of the successes with the friendliness and support you'll find from posters on this thread!

About feeling cold - in the early days I used to keep a pair of walking socks by the bed for when my feet got cold. And I, too, was buzzing when I first started 5:2. But these things settle down when your body becomes accustomed to fasting. Now, instead of feeling high, I just have a steady feeling of well-being.

Another effect of 5:2ing that has stayed with me, is a surfeit of energy - I skip across the lounge to open the curtains, for instance, and walking is often too slow. I turn running up any flight of stairs into a mini HIIT exercise.

Meant to say, I used to console myself when I was feeling cold, or wide awake, that this means it's working!

I skip up any stairs too, B&W (4th floor at work) We are rejuvenated

I am a weekend faster. Doing a FD today.

I was doing the mini-FDs for a while but now I am back on the usual FDs.

It has took a while but it has finally got easier. I am happier with smaller portions on NFDs too.

Well done, Daisies !

Evening all - hope you've all had a good weekend with not too much overeating!

It's been a mixed bag of fortunes here - lost 3lb last week and yesterday finally got my jeans on, first time in over a year due to pregnancy! This opens up lots of wardrobe possibilities as have a few pairs in same size and they'll all fit now!

I do well with exercise last week - mixture of running and mat workouts at home, but then started to feel rough and have come down with a cold. I'm not overly ill but just feel so cold and sniffy, and bloody hungry! Hopefully will be better by tues so that I can resume fasting and exercise.

Another big challenge this week - next week I'm having my photo taken by a professional (it's kind of a publicity shot relating to a minor achievement) and so I've got to try and sort out hair, makeup and clothes! It shouldn't be too hard to do but pregnancy and the months afterwards is such an assault on the body and self esteem that it's not easy to feel presentable to the world at large again.

Good luck for tomorrow, Monday fasters!

Well done EagleRay .
Just weighed myself 1kg off in the first week!!!
Fast day today hoping for another successful week good luck to everyone fasting today.🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀

Morning everyone.
I ended up having a mini fast day on Saturday by accident. Got up too late for breakfast and had arranged to meet friends for lunch so wasn't bothered anyway. All the food turned up except mine. The waitress went to find out why mine hadn't arrived. By the time they'd sorted out what had happened and faffed around, everyone else had pretty much finished theirs and we were out of time, so I just cancelled the order and didn't bother. I didn't bother!!??!! 😳 Somewhere along I've apparently turned into one of those weird people who chirp on about 'forgetting to eat' and such like. I always assumed they were secretly anorexic but maybe not.

I made up for it at the bonfire later though. Pulled pork bap, sausage roll and sticky toffee pudding with clotted cream. Oh and a gallon of mulled cider. 😆

16:8 on Sunday. All real food, low carb, no snacking at all. Today will be a proper fast day and I'm making chicken bone broth at the moment for my evening meal. I really wish I'd made it yesterday as it smells amazing.

Good luck to the Monday fasters !

Well done on your SV, Hollowlew, Eagle
Congrats on your wardrobe NSV Eagle and also too on your other achievement - be very proud of yourself in your publicity shot ! < excited >
I hope that tiresome cold goes quickly;
concentrate on good healthy food and plenty of water, to support your immune system and cut junk & booze - also to help present yourself at your best in the photo.

You sound really in the fasting swing, Phedre With your new mindset, you can skip a main meal at need, as well as enjoy a feast.

I'm really liking it BigChoc. It's an absolute revelation. I came to it with a history of horribly disordered eating and was mainly interested to try and combat pre-diabetes. I've been low carbing for the same reason and the two together have been brilliant. I'm now working really hard at entirely cutting out snacks on my eating days.

One unexpected side effect is that my bad knee is hurting much, much less. It had got to the point that I was strugging to walk the dogs and at the moment it's only really achey if I do too much. Fasting and low carbing seem to both be good for combatting inflamation so I'm hoping that's what's happening. I've certainly not lost enough weight to make a difference, I've been two stone lighter thst I am now and it was still agony.

That's excellent progress and a healthy lifestyle NSV, Phedra

Fasting tends to reduce inflammation - it's thought to be why fasting has been shown to help conditions such as asthma and IBS.
Other folk have also reported less painful joints, more than would be expected from weight loss alone.

Another possible health benefit of fasting is in improving insulin metabolism, which is why it can help avoid / reverse T2 - in combination with low carb - and improve conditions such as PCOS.

These factors are also why Mattson and other leading researchers into degenerative diseases of aging - e.g. Alzheimers, T2/T3, Parkinson, heart disease - advocate intermittent fasting as part of their protocol for health in later life.

Several of us who have adopted 5:2 as our lifetime WOE are in middle age or later and we have done so mainly for the health benefits - as Mosely originally did; weight loss is just a nice fringe benefit for us

Hi all, checking in for a Monday FD, I did a FD on Saturday but didn't get a chance to check in, had a busy few days of it, lots of nice food but didn't go mad and stuck to 16:8 Thursday, Friday & Sunday. Fast day on Saturday actually felt quiet liberating!! I'm another one who finds it difficult to nod off the night of a FD so will try some of your suggestions Bigchoc and I'll take heart like you breadandwine that my buzzy feeling means it's working hi to all new people and returning people - hope we all get through our Monday fast without too much difficulty. Off to tackle my mountain of clothes for ironing now

Weighed in this morning after Week 1, and it says I've lost 5 lbs! Very pleased and has given me lots of motivation to keep at it. Back on a FD today, and going well so far, although I'm really craving a hot chocolate. It's just so cold today!

Good luck, Cl0ver, Winter
Well done on your SV, Cl0ver Excellent start.
Hot Bovril is very warming; also being savoury it's less likely to spike appetite (beef B is 10 cals with 1 teasp, chicken is 18 cals)

Well that's the first FD of this week done - 499 cals! Just back from a spin & gym class, so off to bed with a nice (decaf) cup of almond milky tea, I expect not to be able to move tomorrow after that well done to everyone on the SVs & NSVs your a great bunch and great company to keep me on the right road. Mysticstar welcome aboard, I know it's hard when your self esteem is on the floor but you've made the first step and have started thinking about how to help yourself and your health, like someone else said there is more to any of us than just how we look but I really hope this way of life makes you feel happier about yourself. This is a great support thread so we're all here to have a chat to if you need
Will check in again for Thursday FD.

Ugh, I'm suffering some serious fast day insomnia tonight/today.

WinterWitch I'm really impressed by the exercise you've done on your FD. Next on my list is getting into a regular exercise routine - I might use the insomnia hours to go and read up on the 5:2 exercise threads to get some inspiration.

Well done everyone who completed a Monday fast and good luck to those waking up to a Tuesday fast.