5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Frick - it's not silly to find FDs hard - some are, some less so. Feeling hungry between meals is normal even on non-FDs - but that's okay. As long as you're having a healthy calorific intake over the week, what's the worse that can happen apart from a few cravings? Also, it's not that you CAN'T have the chips - just that on a FD you won't. Tomorrow you can.

Good luck with the rest of the day, and to all other Thursday fasters.

Thanks bigchoc I figured there was probably someting in the literature about why 500 calories vs 0, but I hadn't found a good answer. I'll add in some protein of an evening, and see how that works. I'm probably losing more muscle at the moment by virtue of being a lazy arse and not doing any weight training (I used to) than I am from fasting. One thing at a time though. Once I've fixed my eating habits, I'll get back on the weights .

Thanks breadandwine 🍰 I've seen tour blog before, I think probably through mumsnet

Early FD today as I'm meeting a friend for a birthday (hers) breakfast tomorrow and definately want to partake. Have already looked at the menu!

Some FD are harder than others Frick, I struggle after a bad night's sleep. Just repeat the mantra 'I can have it tomorrow' so much easier to deal with than on a conventional diet when you couldn't have it tomorrow.

I did my second weigh in today, different aet of scales again so am taking it with a pinch of salt but grand total so far is 10kg which is astounding. I have lost all the weight I put on since Easter so that's a relief. Usually I get to this weight (historically a yoyo dieter) and get complacent and then 6 months have gone by and I'm back to square 1. Hopefully this thread will keep me on track.

Good luck to all the new joiners.

Thanks bigchoc I'll get reading and arm myself with evidence - my most vocal friend is a scientist so I'm hoping some decent peer reviewed research will allay her fears.

Hello! Just thought I'd pop by and wave to bigchoc, breadandwine and any other old names still lurking! I fell off the fasting wagon somewhat for a while, consequently went up a few pounds but seem to be firmly back into a healthy regime with a few fast days and lots of 16:8.

Love the thread title BC!

Evening All
1lb down this week.
Ofsted have left the building hopefully things will be getting back to normal now.

< waves madly to BetsyBell >
Lovely to hear from you again, back in the fasting swing
Are you still exercising ?

Well done on your SV, Crepe
This WOL is the one you are going to continue < gavel > so you reach your goal
Then you go to maintenance < gavel again >

Frick You'd probably find FDs easier with just supper, or lunch & supper.
Concentrate on protein with masses of veg, low GI to get more filling & nutritious bang for your calories

Thanks for maintaining them Bigchoc.

I started 5:2 in April but took a break over the summer due to stressful things happening. Have lost over a stone in that time. Would like to about 6 more lbs but have been staying the same for a few weeks now. I'm working out much more and kidding myself it's because I'm building muscle.

How does 16:8 work? Could I add a day doing this on top of 5:2?

Just checking in with my germs. This lurgy is really lingering. I start thinking I'm getting better and then suddenly lose all my energy and have to go to bed for an hour. Cancelled work and all social plans for the week, dogs getting several short walks instead of one long one, which seems to be enough to stop them bouncing off the walls and eating the furniture.

So no FDs for me, but thanks to this thread, neither have I indulged in woe-is-me binge eating. Kept more or less to TDEE and eating lots of fruit and plenty of water.

Bored with feeling bleurgh now - I actually want to go for a run

< soothing > MrD It's natural you are finding weight management tough, because you had all that stress with an unhelpful ex
You are making a new life for yourself. Don't let him sabotage that.

Let's think what can help you return to your winning ways and reduce stress ...

Remember what worked for you before:

• Keep drinking water ! Start each day with a glass & keep glugging.
• Post whenever you need support, FD or NFD
• Have you resumed walking / jogging and strength training ? A friendly group like your MoonWalkers would be supportive If you have v little time, then instead try a 5-minute Fat Blasts 3-5 days per week, as in our 5:2 Exercise Thread #3

FDs

• One meal a day works for many folk, so your system sounds ok.
• With sensible portions of healthy food, that should automatically be a mini-FD (sub-1000)
• If you find NFDs difficult too, you might like 3 x mini-FDS - Daisies has been v successful with this system.

NFDs
How to help control calories & also stay longer in fat-burning mode:

• NO snacking or grazing
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines
• 2:5 sweet junk, i.e. have it only 2 NFDs per week, one sensible portion.
• Avoid savoury junk too (pizza, chips, crisps ...) Your body deserves more nourishment & TLC. Base meals on protein, masses of veg, sensible portions of starchy carbs. Boost beans, lentils, peas, plain Greek yoghurt, berries, apples.

Well done on your SV, LadyC and on staying focused on the WOE during an Ofsted invasion.

Sorry to hear that nasty lurgie is longering, CQ
You are doing really well with healthy maintenance days and doing your ebst for your immune system with the nutritious food & lots of water.

Welcome back, Greengage
When the last few lb hang on - Grrrr, we've all been there ! - the reason is nearly always the NFDs
Many folk 16:8 the NFDs, to get them under control. Most of us maintaining longterm find we thrive on daily 16:8, plus FDs.
Also remember the NO snacks rule and be sensible about sweet junk & booze

Another fast day done. They are definitely getting easier.

I had a very foody and boozy weekend and then didn't fast Monday as we were going to a Halloween party. Tuesday and Wednesday I gave it a miss as I was feeling pretty yuck with a bit of a cold so I was actually quite ready to have a break from eating. (That's something I never imagined saying!)

Dinner was smoked haddock with broccoli and garlic mushrooms. Tasty, filling and came in under 500 calories. 👍

Gah. Today was a total fail of a FD. Hey ho. Shelved it and going to do it again tomorrow.

When starting 16:8, greengage I suggest you just try it on the 3 NFDs that do NOT follow an FD.
Most folk do 16:8 by skipping breakfast (you probably already do this on FDs) so you could have an eating window of say 12 noon to 8 pm, i.e. zero cals for the 16 hrs from 8pm to 12 noon.
You could also ease into this by starting with 14:10.

Good progress with fasting, Phedre Sounds like you have adapted well

Don't worry, Frick: FDs are not "failed", just "moved"
I suggest you plan your meal(s) for the FD in advance and also just double espresso for breakfast.

Hi Betsy! Good to see you again!

What's a few pounds to a seasoned campaigner like yourself, eh?

As BC says, how's the exercise going - and what colour belt are you on now?

Morning all

Thanks for the listening ear once again BigChoc! Yes, the crap with ExH upsetting DD is still going on and is definitely part of it. I just need to get back into the habit of letting the emotion out and not eating it instead. I stopped it last year - and its only happened a couple of times, but I want to make sure that isn't allowed to continue. I'm permanently stressed because of it all - the downside of trying to ensure the DC grow up happy and balanced, with a selfish arse of a Dad I guess.

Yesterdays '1 meal' scenario was reasonably successful studiously ignores the small packet of crisps eaten at lunchtime

In response to your suggestions....

• water... I haven't been drinking enough but am trying really hard to get better again, certainly did much better yesterday
• Will do my best to get back into my posting habit! It may have been mildly excessive for a while, but by god it worked didn't it!
• Walking / Jogging / Strength training - a little up in the air at the moment, had a mole removed a couple of weeks ago on my back, and haven't been able to run since because of stitches pulling. They are now out, but appear to have been taken out too early so I now have steri strips on my back (rapidly applied when it started bleeding again on removal!). I have started a yoga class (first session this week) which I really loved. Hoping to keep that going. Walking, I'm still doing it whenever possible, its just not been possible often as my weekends off have not been off! DD hasn't been going to her Dads overnight whilst this stuff has been going on.

• Foodwise, main meals are far healthier at the moment. I have had a big push on getting fussy DD eating better (particularly with meat - she's great with veg etc)... so I've been meal planning, and putting a menu on the board in the kitchen and just getting on with it. This week we've had beef stew with dumplings, roast chicken, and fajitas - none of which she'd have eaten a few months ago. Always thinking of how I can get added veg in too - eg we had a cottage pie, with onion, celery, carrot, leek and peas inside it - and brocolli on the side... which the kids demolished. So them being better is enabling me to eat better on NFDs.

Money is v. tight at the moment (thanks HMRC with your botched company car tax) so take aways / eating out are few and far between!

Alcohol is pretty much always within guidelines, and snacking is a bit of an issue at the moment, but definitely improving

So - on to another day... fingers crossed it will be a good day, off to top up my water

Good luck to any Friday fasters
I'm not fasting, but I did 1 hr fasted training this morning, Xco and then free weights.
Just tucking in to pasta bolognese, mushy peas & tomatoes. Blueberries, ligonberries & baby peppers (yes really !) to follow for pud.

< waves to MrD > No such thing as posting too often.
btw, if there is a convenient boxing / Thaibo class, this would help you safely & legally express your frustration & anger at that useless waste of space.

Thanks for the pep talk folks

Today's FD is going much better. Not a morsel has passed my lips yet today and I'm still feeling good.

Lol @ "double espresso for breakfast"

Just a quick check in,

Water
Coffee
50g of grapes
Veg soup

146/500.

Feeling good. Hope my fellow Friday fasters are doing well.

Well done Frick"you are doing great

Plenty of calories for later too!

B&W BC Exercise: I think some of the extra weight has turned up because the beloved martial arts is on slight hiatus as my poor instructor has had a major injury this year (unrelated to TKD), but I'm still teaching kids so not entirely lost it yet! I have a belt to go before I get to black, which is at least a year away at the moment. I also I have some physio stuff to do to tackle a bit of a longstanding hip to knee issue, which I think was caused by having and holding babies, but hopefully am slowly sorting out - I basically have to get my glutes to do some work and stop letting my quads do everything! But that's aggravated when I do 'too much' . But ultimately, I should end up with lovely glutes and no more knee pain so it's a win win.

But when not sore I am still running, gym stuff, swimming, bit of weights, cardio...! Yoga has become very important in my regime to counteract all of the above and help with the hip too.

Aside from that I've had a fast day today - gone backwards to my usual routine in that I've had breakfast and lunch but will eat no more until tomorrow sometime.

Also known as Kikisdeliveryservice sometimes! ^^

That sounds good, Frick Stay focused and you'll nail this FD

Kiki / Betsy it's not difficult to confuse me on a Friday evening
You sound fully back in the fasting swing.
With your nagging injuries, I suggest a week or two without training, but keep your yoga if it is gentle and genuinely helps you feel better. Just make sure you don't start nibbling in the extra free time that brings - maybe replace with sauna, massage, pedicure, nails, face mask, other personal care ?

Thanks BC, apols for name confusion - exhausted on a Friday eve is what did it! I had a couple of weeks completely off in October (mostly because I got nasty cold) and now just trying to get back up to speed. The yoga is as much mediation and relaxation techniques as it is stretching and strengthening and is my favourite form of personal care. I might try a bit of retail therapy though...