5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I went for the half a cake option in the end and closed the kitchen, so to speak at 573 or therebouts which is pretty good going in my book. Besides, I was out trick or treating for almost 2 hours so must have burned a few extra calories. Guess what? The remaining 3.5 cakes went in the bin together with the leftover chocolate ganache (polishes halo) 😇

Halloween (surely you'll be name changing now? I'm due one actually too) enjoy your anniversary, it's a big one! Congratulations.

Thanks for the new thread BigChoc and all the advice.

Boo to lurgy season!

< Impressed by people who bin cake >
In fact, refused communal birthday cake today, mindful of the accompanying poo crumbs and lurgy snot

Do warn us if you come with a new handle, Halloween
ChristmasCaesar ?

Oh just spotted that: Happy 10th Anniversary, HalloweenQueen
Have a wonderful day too with your lovely god-D

Thanks, BC!

Sounds like a wonderful week ahead, HQ! A few 16:8s along the way, perhaps?

What about ChristmasCountess for a name change?

I came on to talk about throwing cake away. Many years ago, I was on night shift and I saw a colleague take a piece of cake from his lunch box and throw it in a bin. When I asked him why, he said that he didn't want it that night, but if he took it home he would only find it in his lunchbox again the following night!

Just added up my food (properly for once!) and have finished on 730 cals. The children are asleep so just going to tidy up a bit and crash in bed myself.

The combination of cal reduction and extra exercise today has been a challenge, but have been coasting and plateauing for a while

It's funny - people talk about the temptation of children's leftovers but I've got to clean a highchair which has been used by a 6mo and only the truly desperate would be tempted her offereings

I might have bitten off a tiny corner of the 3yo's Halloween spider biscuit though...

Night night everyone, and remember if it's been a FD for you today, you can have it tomorrow (in my case, a ciabatta roll filled with blue cheese, avocado, tomato and lettuce!)

Mmmm baby canapés!

Hi all, do you mind if I join? This is my first week of fasting and I managed okay on Monday (apart from being absolutely freezing!!) and am back on it again today.

Thanks also for all the amazing info in the OP, it has really given me lots of things to think about!

Lost 1/2 stone so far on 5:2 and I started in late August. Good result as nothing else was working and my weight kept rising.

Another 1/2 stone left to lose now

Thank you for everyone's support here especially BigChoc

Checking in, first FD of this week (pssst it's me by the way,) HalloweenQueen1) thanks for the name suggests bigchoc and bread&wine they made me smile. Wow Crepes I'm very impressed, throwing away cake is real test of willpower, good on you (id still need to throw water on top of it even when in the bin!!) and thanks for the anniversary wishes, looking forward to a nice week now, yep think your right bread 16:8 for the next few days with allot of nice food to look forward to. Hi Clover welcome aboard, and fantastic work Daisies your nearly there that's brilliant. Enjoy your roll today eagle sounds yum happy fasting today folks.

Welcome to the gang, Cl0ver
Well done on your 1st FD. Most folk find their bodies adapt to fasting after 2-3 weeks and it gets much easier

Congrats on your SV, Daisies
That's a double win, because you've found the brakes to stop your weight always increasing and you've found the reverse gear for weight.

< Peers under Witch's tall hat to check ID >

The cakes weren't that nice (box mix, won't be repeating that again). My calories are precious these days so would rather use themon something that tastes delicious. I think thos WOE really sharpens up the tastebuds and things that I previously would have necked greedily without thinking twice about are just not making the grade.

I'm on a NFD today. Woo!

I agree re tastebud sharpening and calorie wasting, crepe. It does make you really think about what you want to eat and why. Are you hungry? Does it taste nice? Is it the texture? Is it just comfort? Is it convenient? Is it worth it ?

I do have to be a bit careful that I don't fall into obsession with it but it does make you think twice.

Well an uneventful FD done (shows Bigchoc official id!!) finished on 540 cals, kitchen is closed, everyone else have already eaten in different places so no cooking to be done for anyone, which makes it a bit easier. Definitely agree that it's quality over quantity now with food. Good luck with all your fds & nfds for the rest of the week folks I'll check back in on Saturday for my 2nd FD - early night for me tonight.

Our WOE helps stop mindless eating, or out of habit when you aren't hungry.
The NO snacking recommendation also cuts down on a lot of sweet crap and gives you more room to enjoy delicious meals

< ticks witch's name. "Pass, friend" >

The cakes weren't that nice (box mix, won't be repeating that again). My calories are precious these days so would rather use them on something that tastes delicious.

Hi crepe

Here's a cake that's both delicious and cal-counted. And it's so easy, a child can make it unaided!

Hello, can I join? Have been interested in fasting for a while, but for whatever reason just hadn't got round to it (can't even think up a valid excuse beyond sheer laziness/fondness for eating).

Just completed 2nd fast day and feeling fine so far. I find if I don't eat at all I don't get uncomfortably hungry, but I know from my usual eating routine, that as soon as I do eat, I'm starving again a couple of hours later (more than I was before I ate IYSWIM). I'd struggle hugely with having 2 small meals a day, but kinda get to evening and think meh and end up skipping dinner too.

Should I try having a 500cal meal before I go to sleep or is it ok to stay at 0? I really don't want to calorie count every day, so if I'm going to behave on NFDs it's easier to not count at all on FDs.

Basically is there a reason I should aim for 500 on FDs if 0 keeps working for me?

Had my weigh in today, I'm 4lb down from 2 weeks ago so well chuffed. My main issue going forward is over eating and drinking at weekends. I'm thinking of trying 16:8 on one or both days for a couple of weeks. I know I'm undoing the good I've done on fast days, but the weekend = reward mindset is ingrained. I'm still on crutches which isn't helping as a walk or bike ride could help but I'm house bound and board.

#bored

I'm another new recruit to this thread although I've been lurking on previous threads so a big thank you to everyone that's put so much effort into collating all of the information and kept the motivation going - you've been helping a lot of lurkers!

I've been doing the 5:2 for 7 weeks now and have lost 7lbs - a steady 1lb a week.

The strange thing is that I keep thinking 'I really must start a proper diet/healthy eating routine', I keep forgetting that I am already doing just that.

I'm shocked as any diet I've embarked on has always been all consuming and exhausting and the minute I take my eye off the ball the weight piles on.

Like you doji I prefer not to eat at all for the majority of my FD, but I do always have dinner. Tonight will be wholemeal black bean rice with jerk chicken and coriander yoghurt. Feels like a huge feast but doesn't even hit 400 calories.

Has anyone had to deal with a lot of negativity from friends when they've revealed they're following a fasting diet? How did you deal with that? If I could avoid telling anyone I would (hate drawing any attention to my weight/eating habits) but it does tend to come up when you're on a fast day.

Well done on the weight loss acorns, a great start.

Congrats on your SV, acorns
It's tough losing weight on crutches, not just because you are much more sedentary, but also because psychologically you feel entitled to comfort eat, for TLC.

I used to sabotage at weekends too (no crutches to excuse my greed !)
I cracked that by making Sat or Sun a regular FD or mini-FD (within 1000 cals)

What is really important:
NO snacking or nibbling
NO heavy boozing

Ideally, keep within nhs alcohol guidelines - For your longterm healtn, not just weight.

Welcome, polpette, doji
Congrats on your SV, Polpette Good start.
Personally, I drop any frenemies who criticise my fasting or weightlifting (cos women shouldn't have muscle )
If you want to engage, refer to the "Science for Fasting & Health" at the bottom of the OP, which references many peer-reviewed papers by leading scientists who are investigating how to avoid several serious / degenerative diseases

Doji I strongly recommend you have a protein-based supper on FDs.

If you exclude starchy carbs & fruit in this meal, it should not cause hunger.
Base the meal on protein, because that retains muscle and is also filling - e.g. have fish / eggs / chicken breast. Optionally add non-starchy veg, e.g. spinach, broccoli.
Aim to have say 40g protein; even in a low carb shake if that's easier.

Scientific research has shown that although very occasional zero-cal fasts shouldn't reduce muscle, regular non-zero fasts probably will;
longterm this would tend to reduce metabolic rate (making fat regain very likely) and also bring a flabby look.
In contrast, Varady's human trials showed that IF (intermittent fasting) with 500 cal FDs retained about 99% of muscle and those who added resistance training retained 100% or even built muscle.

Varady also did a human trial comparing fasters on 0 / 25% TDEE / 50% TDEE.
The optimum balance between weight loss and muscle retention was 25% TDEE. For almost all women, 500 is a good approximation that works well.

hi... been a while! I hope you're all well, and going to allow me back on the thread!

so - I've been soul searching for the last week or two. I know why things have slipped, and I want to gain back control (Yep - I know thats what I said a month or so ago, but been doing more)

I've spent some time rereading the inspirational thread, I've worked out what my TDEE would be at a healthy weight, and just for today, I'm trying a new plan. Today I'm fasting... but I'm not setting a calorie limit - I'm just having one meal. I have put it into MFP so I know roughly what it is, and its coming in under 700.

For now, I'm happy with that. I need to get back into it - but I'm wondering if all the MFP'ing was making it too stressful, so for now I'm going to try and just be mindful. use MFP when I need / want to - but not let it all go to shit as soon as I stop... just keep a rough count in my head.

If today goes well, I'll try another day like today Monday.

I'm also going to try and aim for goal TDEE a couple of times a week.

REALLY want to get myself back in the zone, not helped because work is so busy posting during the day has become trickier. Weight has crept up, and loss is closer to 3st than 4 at present. REALLY want to be back at 4 before Christmas - which would mean another 2 stone down between last Christmas and this.

Water - check!

FD today. Finding it hard. Silly really. It's because I know I CAN'T that I really want to (eat a whole bag of kettle chips bacon & maple).

Had breakfast too early today really. That was my downfall.

This morning has been nice and distracting but I can feel the snackmonster roaring. Hence posting on here to distract myself.

waves @ oohmrdarcy