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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2016 11:31

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 11/11/2016 13:12

4:3 can boost weight loss - provided you keep NFDs under control.

BUT it has caused many people problems:

  • Main disadvantage - people use it to avoid tackling NFD, so they regain once they stop 4:3 Training yourself how to eat on NFDs is essential for longterm maintenance
  • It interferes far more with social life and more people crash out of it than 5:2
  • If your life is stressful - job, family, health - 4:3 worsens this. 5:2 is much gentler on the system.
  • When you plateau, you don't have an easy fix, because 4:3 is the best 5:2 plateaubuster
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/11/2016 13:13

Mixing it up is a good idea. Use at need 4:3, 16:8, 3 x mini FDs etc

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/11/2016 13:18

For GardenGirl:
The best method of weight management for an individual depends both on your aims and on what you are able to do.
So:

5:2 (longterm WOE) / mini-FDs (if you can't 5:2) / BSD (short term diet to reverse T2)

More detail ....

Standard CR Diets

Where CR works:
Fit people around normal weight who do this up to 8-10 weeks per year, to trim a few lb.
e.g. many professional fitness models & sportspeople

Where CR fails:
Prolonged for months, this tends to lower metabolic rate and reduce muscle. So, diminishing returns as time goes on.
Also, for those who are insulin resistant, hormeostasis means the body keeps trying to return to its set point.
Hence, lowering metabolic rate even more & ramping uphunger.

IF (Intermittent Fasting)
5:2, ADF, 16:8, Eat-Stop-Eat etc - but NOT BSD(which is daily fasting)
All fasting - IF and BSD - activate hormesis, which may bring health benefits and also doesn't lower metabolic rate as much as CR.

IF helps correct insulin metabolism and also reduce inflammation.
Studies & people on these threads have found it improves: PCOS, IBS, asthma, joint pain
Leading researchers into healthy aging say Intermittent Fasting as a WOL helps avoid some degenerative diseases e.g. Alzheimers, Parkinsons, cardiovascular disease, T2.
However, to get full health benefits of fasting (not just weight loss) your NFDs need to be healthy too: i.e. low on sugar, junk & booze.

Fasting is protective toward muscle, provided that:
. the weekly calorie deficit is not extreme
. you don't do regularly exceed 24 hrs of zero cals
. you have adequate protein daily.

5:2
Excellent balance for the typical person wanting to lose weight & improve some health risks, while maintaining a normal lifestyle per week.

3 x mini-FDs (below 1000 cals)
If you just can't manage 5:2 because of e.g. BF, stress, unstable insulin metabolism.
This system can also help you get used to fasting, so you can move after some weeks or months to 5:2

Sports people have used calorie cycling for years, because it is more effective than CR.
3 minis are like a ramped up form of this.
So, it is a method well proven to work for weight loss.

Johnson's ADF studies indicate some health benefits even on 50% TDEE, which is basically a miniFD.

BSD
Is an 8-week VLCD (Very Low Calorie Diet) not suitable as a longterm WOE.
It is intended for those wishing to reverse T2, or who are at high risk of getting T2.

It is very strict about what to eat & what not to:
Eat Mediteranean low carb = fish, eggs, meat, poultry, non-starchy veg, legumes (beans, peas, lentils), yoghurt, cheese, nuts & seeds
Absolutely NONE of: alcohol, sugar, starches e.g. potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, oats, any sweet treats. Also, limits fruit to ideally mainly berries.

It is completely different from fad crash diets that are nutritionally inadequate or rubbish (e.g. syrupy water)

For BSD, Mosely recommends walking 10k plus short bursts of resistance training.
There is still risk of a little muscle loss with BSD, but this is outweighed by the huge health benefits of avoiding T2 and of a v obese person losing a lot of weight.

imo, BSD is too restrictive for someone at low risk of T2 but just wanting to lose a stone or so.

OP posts:
hollolew2 · 12/11/2016 17:35

Quick question when's the best time of week to weigh yourself the day after my two fast days ( Thursday) or Monday. I've already weighed myself after my FD's but I'm interested to see if I've put on any weight on my 4 days off which I think would show if I'm eating too much.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/11/2016 21:28

Weigh consistently:

  • First thing in the morning after 2nd FD of the week, naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.
  • Same scales, always in the same position on a level, hard floor - not carpet.
  • (for digital) Switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on, so they have time to zero properly
  • Step on, no jumping; keep still & don't shift your balance or lean to one side
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 12/11/2016 21:36

If you find you are nor losing as expected, then TDEE Calc gives an average target for NFD calories, where activity level should be set to either sedentary, or one level below what you estimate (Mosely's advice)

You can optionally mfp for a full week, which would give a reality check on meal portion size & highlight any calorie bombs, such as amount of treats or booze.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/11/2016 06:47

Morning all.
I'm fasting today. Who else ?
Good luck to us all Smile

OP posts:
Daisiespurple · 14/11/2016 07:01

Morning BigChoc

FD for me too. Had a takeaway on Saturday so did 16:8 yesterday to mitigate some of the damage!

Have a good day everyone

hollolew2 · 14/11/2016 07:39

Morning fast day today. Find it easier to have one meal a day which is dinner I just have a smalller portion of what everyone else has which works for me good luck to everyone fasting today 🍀☺️🍀☺️

CeciledeVolanges · 14/11/2016 09:32

I've just had a bit of a devastating personal thing (dumped by boyfriend of five years) and I didn't eat at all yesterday. Had about 250 liquid calories. Still not really wanting to eat this morning. Sorry I have dropped off this thread and good luck Monday fasters

Daisiespurple · 14/11/2016 11:21

Really sorry to hear that Cecile Flowers Flowers Flowers

Big hugs xx

BigChocFrenzy · 14/11/2016 11:42

I'm so sorry, ((({Cecile})) How rotten for you

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 14/11/2016 12:05

Thanks both. On the plus side, I've really clicked with fasting now, I felt fine cycling in and I just don't really want to eat anything. On the minus side, life falling apart etc. It has been a horrendous horrendous year.

Five2ate · 14/11/2016 20:00

Flowers cecile hoping that next year turns out to a good one.

I've found today's FD incredibly easy, I did have a few 'snacky' things last night whilst watching a film so perhaps that's why - still full from yesterday!

Switching to 5:2 this week with a mini FD thrown in. Haven't been on the scales for a few weeks and there's not really any change in measurements over this period either. Not sure if I've lost any weight but I feel ok about that. For all I know I could be shrinking in places I haven't measured, chin and back bra bulge area hopefully Wink

Hope everyone else's day went well.

FiveTwoFaster · 14/11/2016 20:25

First FD of the week over with - have been doing it for about 8 or 9 weeks now and am approximately 10lbs down having been a round (in every way) 14st before.

I always find the first FD of the week fine, the second much less so. But this does seem to work, albeit not at a million miles an hour. At least it's only part time. As I remind myself constantly!

Also trying to be slightly healthier and less carby on NFDs but one thing at a time...

BigChocFrenzy · 14/11/2016 22:26

Well done on your SV, FiveTwo

re healthier habits: I recommend NO Snacks, just eat meals.

Carbs: What has the most effect on health is how much sugar, especially added sugar, you consume.
Most people feel well on sensible amounts of starchy carbs, provided these aren't junk

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/11/2016 22:51

Five2 If you don't think clothes feel looser, then I recommend you weigh yourself, to check you have made some progress after your time on this WOE

  • if you've been 5:2ing a few weeks, you should see a reduction in inches and / or lb.

If not, I recommend you mfp for a week or so, because you may be eating back the FD deficit on the NFDs - especially if your TDEE is low, i.e. if you are short / sedentary / middle-aged / have a sweet tooth / like a few drinks / takeaways etc

Several folk on these threads have been shocked to find that their "natural eating" on NFDs is several hundred calories above their TDEE.

NFDs are the roadblock in at least 90% of cases where people don't obtain the results they want.

OP posts:
Five2ate · 14/11/2016 23:47

I've definately made progress Bigchoc, 10 kg to date at my last weigh in a couple of weeks ago. Just not sure if I've lost anything since then. I've been using mfp religiously too so theoretically I should have lost. I'll get to the scales on Thursday and report back.

iisme · 15/11/2016 06:52

Hello. Longer time lurker with a question - I've been doing 5:2 for a couple of months and on the whole enjoying it. Today is a fast day for me but I'm coming down with a cold. Not stay-off-work kind of ill - just tired, achy, feeling a bit rotten. Should I go ahead with the fast day as usual? Or does my body need extra nutrition when I'm unwell? I feel like I want to pamper myself a bit and, uncharacteristically, really don't feel like fasting today. But is that just self indulgence?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/11/2016 07:56

Morning, everyone.
Who's fasting today ?
Enjoy your NFD, Monday fasters Smile

I'm on maintenance and exercise a lot; so my system is 2 x 800-cal FDs.
On my FD yesterday evening, I did 2hr hardcore gym classes: functional lifts with Tabata, followed by HIIT spin.
I'll break my fast with a delicious tapas & salad lunch at 12 pm. I feel full of energy atm.

Well done, 10kg is an important SV, Five2
Sorry, I misunderstood "several" weeks as 6+ without progress Smile Sounds like you are on track to goal.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/11/2016 08:09

iisme I recommend you postpone your FD today. Those symptoms suggest your immune system needs nutrients

So, have a few healthy TLC days until you recover:
i.e.

  • drink lots of water and try to eat veg & fruit, but have soft comfort food too (e.g. mac 'n cheese) if you want
  • avoid sugary junk and booze until you recover, because they depress the immune system
  • cut out exercise when unwell, except for optional short walks.

My general advice for illness is never to fast with a fever or upset stomach, but just TLC and eat if hungry.
For colds, it depends how you feel.

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 15/11/2016 08:09

iisme BigChoc normally responds that one should not fast when feeling ill, but eat healthily and fast when feeling better again. I hope that helps.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/11/2016 08:11

I hope you feel better soon.
Both fasting & exercise are great when healthy, but can overload your system when unwell.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/11/2016 08:11

Great minds .... Smile

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 15/11/2016 08:46

I just learned from the best :)