5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Sadly, even poo crumbs can't put me off cake! Reminding myself that I can have a huge slice tomorrow if I like does help though. And strangely when I know I can have it I'm not interested!

Weigh day today and I'm half a pound up.

My target was to maintain as last week I lost 2.5lb.

I only managed 1 FD, so half a pound gain is nothing.

I may throw in a mini-FD today.

Hi everyone, didn't manage to make it on yesterday, it was a crazy busy day so the FD flew past, finished on 490 cals, just about got to have my evening meal and then did a spin & bodycore class, came home and basically collapsed into bed! So I'm going to base my FDs on what I have going on, the busier the better.

Quick question has anyone noticed a change in their periods??? Mine wasn't due on Friday and still no sign (have taken two tests and both negative, it would be a miracle if they were positive to be honest) so I'm wondering if it could be the fasting that's delaying it???

Hope everyone is over their hangovers/colds, I had another sensible eating weekend, managed to have a nice glass of red wine (stuck to one!) with my dinners on Saturday and Sunday and stayed within happy weight TDEE so hopefully this is the way forward
Poo crumbs thoughts are something that work great for me when I'm out at anything (unless I've made it myself then I could eat the lot!!)

Good luck with fasting today everyone

was due on Friday, that should read

Sadly, even poo crumbs can't put me off cake!

Me too. :( Although on the upside my immune system is great, must be from all the poo crumbs I've ingested in the past.

Well done on your FD yesterday, Halloween, Frazzle A busy day is usually a good choice cor fasting.
Not long to go for the Wednesday fasters

Frazzle Half an lb is a wee or a small poop; not even a blip.
I suggest you just keep to 2 FDs this week, so you can enjoy (sensibly) 5 NFDs and don't feel deprived. Sustainability is key for progress with weight loss.
Especially since you had a largeish loss last week - some folk tend to lose in fits & starts, rather than linearly every week.

When it comes to cake or pud, I consider I'm worth the best quality, pristine treat.
i.e. without poo crumbs.
Hence I never feel tempted by communal poo crumbs & snot dribbles.

Hello checking in after a successful fast day 470 calories. Love this thread

Toomany well done I've done 530 today which I'm counting as almost successful. I'm struggling to get within the 500cal mark.

Oops, sorry if I worried anyone by referring to "Wednesday fasters"
I had just installed IOS 10.1, going from 8.0, so a few hiccups wrt knowing what day it is !

Well done on your FD, Wheelie You sound very positive and in the groove.

Don't worry about regularly going a bit over 500, Gunting
If you regularly manage 2 FDs weekly like that, that's fine. Sustainability is the key.

Now I can cheer on the Wednesday fasters, on Wednesday < peers suspiciously at iPad calendar >

Second fast day today. I was a bit worried I ate too much yesterday. My meals weren't too bad but I did have a bag of hoola hoops and a glass of wine. However I didn't go over my TDE although not the healthiest of days.

Half term is seriously buggering up my FDs. Fasted on Monday and intended to do so again on Friday, but Grandma has just invited me and DD out to lunch.

If I fast from after lunch to the following teatime does that have the same effect? Cos a full day fast is actually nearer 36 hours isn't it?

I guess anything is better than nothing. Certainly better than the way I was eating previously.

Looking forward to GBBO final tonight. I have a homemade cookie to eat - worked out the calories on MFP and all accounted for within my TDEE

CQ Yes, a fast is a full day plus a night, so roughly 36 hrs.
For the purposes of half-term weight loss, remember the aim of 5:2 is to get a weekly calorie deficit from 2 days fasting.
So, with each short fast spread over 2 days, try to moderate what you eat before and after the fast.
To reproduce the weight loss effect of a proper FD and NFD, those 2 days would need around a total of (TDEE + 500). So you'd do that twice per week

You could try is Brad Pilon's Eat-Stop-Eat:
Fast totally - so zero calories - from supper to supper, i.e. zero cals for about 22-24 hrs

Eat-Stop-Eat is only twice a week, of course

I think I've finally cracked the eating too much sugar problem - and it simply comes down to taking my own advice.

Which is:
Whenever you feel like eating something you probably don't need - whether it's with a cup of tea in the afternoon, or straight after a meal, or whenever - put a timer on for 20 minutes.

9 out of 10 times the urge will pass and you'll be back in the zone. If you still want it, at least you've made a conscious decision. In this case, before you put anything in your mouth, lift it up and examine it carefully. And ask yourself, "Do I really need this?"

I'm going away for a walking weekend on Friday, where there'll be plenty of eating and drinking - which makes it easier for me to resist any treats in the lead up!

CQ has reminded me of GBBO tonight. I've been asked back onto BBC Somerset radio to comment on it again.

The interview is at 7.20 tomorrow morn - almost 2 hours before my usual alarm call!

I'll post a link on iPlayer tomorrow sometime.

Checking in for Thursday FD (looks around feeling slightly lonely!) baking buns and cakes at the moment for a coffee morning so the will power is being tested to the limit!

A real test for your will power HalloweenQueen1, I fasted yesterday and had to make chocolate and caramel brownies and lemon drizzle cakes - can't tell you how many cups of coffee I drank or how many trips to the loo . You can always have a bun tomorrow.

Love the 20 min timer idea Breadandwine - I'm definitely going to try it from now on. So sad GBBO is over what am I going to watch on a Wednesday evening now? Hope the interview went well though.

Can't believe how fast this week has gone....forgot to do my Monday weigh in but did do it on Tuesday, the result 4lb off . Thank goodness I stuck with it after last week's disaster when I managed to put a lb on! When things like that happen it does make you feel like giving up especially when you've been good, if it wasn't for the support and advice on here I might well have.

In case anyone out there had a blip like me, here's what I've done differently. I've been much more mindful on NFD meals - what I eat and how much, I have drunk tea and coffee when I feel like snacking between meals and have switched from a couple of glasses of wine of an evening (NFD only of course) to a couple of small G&T's with lots of low cal tonic.

What with this new approach and Breadandwine's 20 min rule, I'm hoping I'll continue on the downward slope.

However, big worry - HELP- I have the builders in on Monday and will have no kitchen for a month so it's going to be a challenge making sure I don't buy and eat junk just because it's convenient! If anyone out there has any good recipes for microwave meals I'd love to know.

Checking back in on the wagon with another slight name change to reflect my mood today. Weight has crept up but still within normal BMI. Ideally I'd like to lose 6kg to get it down to the mid range again.

Biggest problem for me now is my waist. Or lack of it. All the weight I've put on seems to have gone there. Brought it home to me today as I needed smart black trousers and of the three pairs I have only one actually fastened, and even they were tight. Fit over the hips was good on all three, even the ones I couldn't fasten.

Am not totally unfit - did a half marathon a couple of weeks ago admittedly part run part walk but managed the first 6 miles without walking. Unfortunately within 36 hours I went down with the gastro bug which was going around, and although it only lasted 48 hours, I'm still feeling exhausted and my craving for anything sweet is shocking.

So, am not sure at the moment whether 500cal FDs are a good idea or not; perhaps I should ease myself in with 16:8, reacquaint myself with a decent diet and a focussed exercise plan?

Hope your FD is going well Halloween.

Am on this week's second fast today.

So far I've found fasting really easy, much easier than last time round (two years ago). But today I'm struggling - imminent period and not much sleep last night. Makes me realise why I found it so hard last time, I had a toddler and a small baby. They're two years older now and at school/nursery so much easier on me!

Totally agree SilentBiscuits - lack of sleep is the enemy of willpower.

Thanks BigChoc - I think I could do 24 hours of zero cals if I start after lunch tomorrow.

Then back to normal FDs next week when peace and order are restored in the house.

Congrats on your SV, silver
It's important to always keep in mind that, even if you stay on plan every week, your body is not a calorie-crunching computer:
you can still have a blip - usually because a hormonal swing has temporarily increased water retention

Also, there is a theory that sometimes after you have burnt off fat, your body may fill some empty fat cells with water, then release it later with a "whoosh"
Strangely, drinking more water seems to help here.
The main thing is not to get discouraged, just keep on track and you'll lose.

So, look at the trend over a few weeks and ignore one week's blip

Sleep !
Getting enough sleep is an important factor in weight management.
Longterm sleep deprivation increases levels of the cortisol hormone, which tends to increase hunger and also increase fat storage around the midsection.

Welcome back, Granny
Sorry to hear about that horrid bug.
Your body can require longer than you realise to rebuild its immune system and also replenish gut flora.
So, I recommend you let your body recover fully before fasting.

In the meantime, aim for say 3 weeks ....

"training in healthy habits":

• Eat nutritious low GI meals - protein, beans & lentils, lots of veg, moderate portions of carbs, plus optionally 1-2 portions fruit daily
• Cut right back on sugary crap, junk food & booze, all of which are anti-nutrients and also pile on weight around the middle
• NO snacks between meals
• Drink lots of water, starting the day with a glass
• Plan your day to get 8.5 hrs in bed each night
• Avoid strenuous exercise, especially long steady state cardio sessions / runs - these hammer the immune system even for healthy people. A hard 90 minute run reduces immune system function for up to 3 days. A half-marathon for up to 14 days, including time for repair of micro tears in heart muscle fibres Aim for a 20 min daily walk and gradually add in 2-3 times per week x 20 mins lifting medium weights
• Try daily 14:10 for 2 weeks, then a week of 16:8

Weight around the midsection
3 main causes:

• Too much alcohol
  . Strongly recommended (for longterm health too): keep within nhs guidelines.

• Too many carbs, especially sugary carbs - more than your particular body can use for energy; hence it stores them as bodyfat.

I recommend:
. Cut right down on sugary crap - e.g. cake, biscuits, choc, sweets, pastries, donuts.
. Reduce savoury junk carbs too, e.g. pizza, crisps, deep fried / breaded food
. Monitor portion size of other starchy carbs e.g. potatoes, rice, pasta. Generally no more than 100-150g cooked weight total in any meal - don't save up to eat 2 meals of carb portions in one go.

• Snacks - Spending too much time in the insulin-dominant state . For everyone NO snacking / grazing between meals. This allows your body more time in the fasted state and hence more opportunity to burn fat.

Hello everyone - back from hols a week now and everything restored. FDs we're hard out there, but I did TRY, and at least managed eating minimally until dinner time, and then on a couple of other days I did t eat st all until mid-pm. I came home a couple of kilos heavier but I'm pretty certain one of those was flight-related and the other was swiftly dispatched by my FDs this week.

I've also completed w2 of c25k and did my first session with baby and 3yo yesterday. We did the walking bit together (I've got a Bob Ironman running pushchair) then went to a large field, parked the kids by a swing, put 3yo on it, then did the running bits on my own and pushed the stroller around for the walking bits. It's complicated, and it's a hassle but you have to be inventive when trying to exercise with no childcare!

On Monday, baby has just started a morning nursery session and next week I plan to go for a run after drop off, and run towards local posh spa which I have some pre-paid tickets for, then lie in a hot outdoor pool with my thoughts

Hope everyone has had a good week, and good luck to the Friday fasters! For those of you just starting out, please keep at it, and keep coming back for support and advice. I'm well over 20lb down since the summer and my poor perimenopausal tummy which had a 10.5lb baby in it in May is now flat if a little wrinkly